View factor studios - FF & RED motors

[Curran Giddens]

Mirus:

Impero:

Matte Box

Count me in for one of each....

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Curt,

Very excited about the mattebox.. My only suggestion would be this: Looking as CAvision (We're working with one on a feature now) they clearly made it cheaper by building it cheaper. Not impressive at all. I would suggest building a GRADE-A swingaway mattebox and trying to keep it reasonable.

The MB-20 is running around $5,600 with eyebrows, filter trays, etc.. Why not see if you can make something equally impressive for 1/2 that cost.

Lord knows I'd buy it..

My two cents
Jay

 

[CVB]

Casey, I don't think I ever said we wouldn't put the white disk on the remote, I was just pointing out what that means in the context of the system that we are making. Its not difficult to put it on there but I'm just trying to understand why someone would rather spend a two minutes writing marks on the disk rather than just hitting a button will automatically map the lens positions to the "virtual disk" on the lcd instantly. If thats what everyone is used to doing then I will throw the white disk into the design. I see no reason why both systems can't coexist

Jay - Just because we're making things affordable doesn't mean they're going to be cheap. I don't think its worth our time to make a crappy product just to make it... I want to make things that look like they cost an arm and a leg but only cost an arm, or maybe a few fingers.

 

[Adrian Correia]

in regards to the mattebox and the remote...count my fingers in....

 

[Finner]

I've had a few camera companies charge me an arm and a leg that I would still like to give them a finger or two.

 

[Casey Green]

Casey, I don't think I ever said we wouldn't put the white disk on the remote, I was just pointing out what that means in the context of the system that we are making. Its not difficult to put it on there but I'm just trying to understand why someone would rather spend a two minutes writing marks on the disk rather than just hitting a button will automatically map the lens positions to the "virtual disk" on the lcd instantly. If thats what everyone is used to doing then I will throw the white disk into the design. I see no reason why both systems can't coexist

OK, gotcha. Yes, that does make sense. thanks. (I also agree both systems could coexist, and perhaps that is the best option).

 

[Finner]

Casey, I don't think I ever said we wouldn't put the white disk on the remote, I was just pointing out what that means in the context of the system that we are making. Its not difficult to put it on there but I'm just trying to understand why someone would rather spend a two minutes writing marks on the disk rather than just hitting a button will automatically map the lens positions to the "virtual disk" on the lcd instantly. If thats what everyone is used to doing then I will throw the white disk into the design. I see no reason why both systems can't coexist

Good news. Your new focusing lcd concept will be interesting to see. I am sure it will spur on new focus pulling techniques for some 1st AC's but many do live and die by the little white marking disc. Especially when on a crane and setting hard natural focus mark points on the disc which is one of the most often uses of a remote follow focus.

 

[John V]

I know i am not an expert by any means but dont blast me for the comment. The white disk is used to mark real points correct? Now if there is a virtual marking lcd why does it matter if it is there or not. Also remember the focus assist is completely motion control based meaning it remembers point regradless of anything else. Almost all others are plain dumb remotes in that that just know the start and stop points of a lens..nothing in between. Thats my simple minded comment.

 

[Finner]

I know i am not an expert by any means but dont blast me for the comment. The white disk is used to mark real points correct? Now if there is a virtual marking lcd why does it matter if it is there or not. Also remember the focus assist is completely motion control based meaning it remembers point regradless of anything else. Almost all others are plain dumb remotes in that that just know the start and stop points of a lens..nothing in between. Thats my simple minded comment.

With a disc you can place your hands and fingers at 2 Oclock or another position like that that your brain remembers and allows you to pull focus without hardly looking at the lens or focus puck and just viewing the action in front of the camera. I was a focus puller for 10 years and some people think it is a simple job but I assure you it is not. I feel like a broken record trying to help people see how important the disc is for many focus pullers, its just focus pullers develop a system and the white disc is a critical part of that system for many many reasons from small to big help do the job. Lets put it this way if you were not a doctor and were about to get an operation would you really say "hey doc that machine doesn't seem like it does a whole lot so how about you don't use it." If the doctor told you it was very important would you really argue with him? Trust me the white disc and raised marker may seem like a simple device that does not achive that much but it is very important for multiple reasons and does more then you may think in the hands of an experienced focus puller.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Curt, from my limited experience, it is the tactile feel of the disc that is so important.

I really think you need that white disc. All that a lot of people want is something a bit cheaper and a bit better than current systems. We don't really need fancy new focus inventions that we won't use and which add to the cost and complexity of the system.

Seriously, just aim to beat the Bartech in price/performance, like you aim to beat the Arri MB-20, and you'll have a winner.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Priyesh P.]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.
But could it be that both sides are missing each other?

I mean is it correct Finner, that you like to have a disc for focus marks - that means markings for distances to certain points on the set? Or do you you mean focus marks in term of lens scales - that means the calibrated markings on the lens barrel?
What I would like to understand is if those of you who need a white marking disc need it to make intermediate marks or to tranfer the whole set of markings of a lens?
(hope I've made my question clear enough. I'm not a native english speaker)

 

[Bruce Allen]

True. Let me try another angle - what I'd love is for the designers of this gear to actually spend a few days on set watching someone pull focus. Maybe spend a few days trying to pull focus themselves. There seems to be a slight disconnect between the engineering and the filmmaking reality.

To be honest, most of the problems have already been solved - if you look at the Arri, CMotion, Preston and even Bartech systems, they work and they are accepted by the industry. They all have big white discs. The fact that Curt's render didn't have a big white disc is scary to us because is suggests that he hasn't examined the industry standards closely and is trying to make some weird new system instead from first principles. It might be a new system of great genius, but the problem is then everyone's going to have to re-train for it, and that will suck.

If Curt created an amalgam of the current industry-standard systems or just a simplified version that is responsive and easy to use and at a good price I think most people would be perfectly happy.

Personally I think that the extra fly-by-wire preset buttons, LCD systems etc are a distraction and a hindrance from just making a simple, good, cheap follow focus that doesn't require much training and works in an industry standard way. If you do go the fancy LCD way, then do it the way Arri, Cmotion, etc. do it - that way people don't have to learn yet another system to operate the Red...

To me, all of this weird stuff is kinda like voice recognition in the Red. Yes it would be cool as heck if the thing started rolling automatically when I yell "Action" but if it put up the price or distracted the team from the primary purpose of making a good, cheap camera that people can use easily, that feature should be cut.

I say this with the utmost respect for Curt's engineering prowess!

EDIT: I should also mention that even the upcoming $500 RedRock has a white disc:
http://www.redrockmicro.com/microRemote.html
And browsing Cmotion's site, I see that the focus of their marketing is on the ergonomics of the unit. They talk about ergonomics before fancy features and that's the way it should be. Things like balance, adjustable torque, exchangable marker rings, the sensitivity of the knob, the good placement of everything, even the goodness of the neck strap! This is the right attitude to take and incredibly important. Because they talk about ergonomics first, we understand that they have their priorities straight and we trust that they have spent time getting it right.
http://cmotion.eu/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=31

So, my vote for the Impero is to ditch all unnecessary features and just make something simple that works beautifully. The most important thing is the ergonomics - it should get out of the way and let the focus puller do their job.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[CVB]

I understand everyones aversion to nixing a standard... I already conceded that the marking disk will stay. Maybe I should cover the reasoning behind the "complexity" of the system. We believe in giving value to the customer, and as such we would rather spend our time building one product that kicks ass rather than three or four and milking you guys for your hard earned cash. This isn't going to just be a remote for the lens motors, its also going to work with our moco head and a couple other goodies that are on the drawing board. When you are using it with our moco head it will control any axis, including pan and tilt. There are a number of settings that are at your disposal, from easing rate, max velocity, presets etc that might not necessarily apply in a non-moco setting but they will be important if you are doing a motion control shot with the remote. Its hard to adjust parameters if you cant see them.

I could easily make a version that controls one axis and has no smarts... it would just have a knob and the white disk with a couple buttons... basically a BFD without the bulk or the price tag. I really hate making things that don't advance technology at all but if thats what everyone wants then who am I to change a standard.

I want to design this right and thats why I come to this forum to get feedback. I really do appreciate the everyones comments but try not to get too upset with me when I ask if something is an absolute necessity or if its just there because its how its always been done. The camera is revolutionary, why not make the accessories revolutionary too

Sorry Bruce, just saw your edit. One thing I'd like to reinforce is that this is in development.. nothing is in stone. We're going to make Impero as good as possible but in the end my priorities are 1) It won't break, 2)Its EASY to use, 3)It doesn't suck, 4)Its inexpensive.

 

[Priyesh P.]

Curt, is it way too complicated to write two softwares?
Keep the hardware, but bundle it with these two:
1.Classic: Remote focus capabilities, nothing else, LCD is disabled.
2.Special: Remote focus capabilities and everything else (and the LCD works, of course)
;-)

edit: After I've thought about it a bit more, it kinda makes sense to me. Why don't integrate a little function into the software that simply disables all advanced feature and extra buttons? I mean that way even the cautious or sceptic users have a chance to test the extra functions and look if they work for them (maybe in special situations, who knows).
And the others don't have to forbear them.

 

[Finner]

We believe in giving value to the customer, and as such we would rather spend our time building one product that kicks ass rather than three or four and milking you guys for your hard earned cash.

This is why I feel you guys will do so well Curt and probably one of the big reasons Jim picked up your motors to the red line up.

I want to design this right and thats why I come to this forum to get feedback. I really do appreciate the everyones comments but try not to get too upset with me when I ask if something is an absolute necessity or if its just there because its how its always been done. The camera is revolutionary, why not make the accessories revolutionary too

We all appreciate your openness to feedback as well.

Sorry Bruce, just saw your edit. One thing I'd like to reinforce is that this is in development.. nothing is in stone. We're going to make Impero as good as possible but in the end my priorities are 1) It won't break, 2)Its EASY to use, 3)It doesn't suck, 4)Its inexpensive.

One more big priority/request for #1) It won't break. A lot of the current remote FF units are fairly sensitive to water and however you try and cover them rain always seems to get in a little. So water resistance would be high on the list for me.

One more thing Curt I hope you did not take my post to Johnvon12 directed to you. As I had seen earlier that you were going to be incorporating the disc and that post of mine was only directed to johnvon12's question. By the way johnvon12 is not your brother is he?

 

[donatello b]

"the designers of this gear to actually spend a few days on set watching someone pull focus"

WHY ??? they are only going to see somebody turning a knob with a white disc that has human made focus marks on it ... that system has work for the past X years and they will not describe any new way ...

if RED had gone out to sets before they showed the basic RED design - everybody would have described a camera between a arri and panavision .. IMO those that have been in the business know what works and have very little vision on a totally new CONCEPT ...
also you don't have to look back too far to see that the majority of those that work in the business 1st reaction to a new design ( as in RED) was a "won't work , can't be done , vaporware, this is the way we do it why change = a big NO ... ??? you don't hear any complaints these days about RED design !!

i say show me something NEW ( and i do like what i've seen ) ...
if it works better they will follow ...

 

[Finner]

WHY ??? they are only going to see somebody turning a knob with a white disc that has human made focus marks on it ...

If you did not ask any questions or talk to the 1st AC this is all you would see but there is a lot more happening then you may think. Heck if you visit a film site Donatello probably what you will see is a lot of people standing around doing nothing. What things appear to be on the surface are often much different then what is really going on.

IMO those that have been in the business know what works and have very little vision on a totally new CONCEPT ...

I would have to completely disagree with this. Most people in the industry are always trying new things as it is what helps you improve and get better. The secret though is combining what is proven and works with what is new. This is exactly what red did. They essentially took what works (shutter, PL lenses, view finder, cine accesories) and added a new hi tech sensor, digital memory for storing and a few other cutting edge things. Pretty much though the RED camera looks very similiar and has most of the same features as a traditional film camera. Like I mentioned its all about combining what works with new technology and not about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

By the way Donatello what does a Ninga Turtle really know about filmaking anyway? :bleh:

 

[Casey Green]

...what I'd love is for the designers of this gear to actually spend a few days on set watching someone pull focus. Maybe spend a few days trying to pull focus themselves. There seems to be a slight disconnect between the engineering and the filmmaking reality.
www.boacinema.com

Yes, I second this. What I would recommend is shadowing a focus puller on a feature, which would probably provide feedback in the most pressurized of production situations.

IMO, this will show the differences in how tools are used, and why they are developed the way they are. For example, on a non-union indy film, you might have the luxury of more time in between takes and more total takes ... perhaps a little more rehearsal time. Whereas on a union feature, you might be working under more strict time allowances, more intensity, and only have a couple of takes to work with . (Of course this can be true for any type of production... I'm just using these as examples... time requirements might be more strict on any particular production).

If watching a pro focus-puller in action in a real-world high stakes situation is possible, I think it would be extremely valuable to development regardless of which features end up in the final product.

Thanks for listening to our feedback.

 

[CVB]

One more big priority/request for #1) It won't break. A lot of the current remote FF units are fairly sensitive to water and however you try and cover them rain always seems to get in a little. So water resistance would be high on the list for me.

Yeah, the water resistance was on my list on our site...

• Wireless (Zigbee) and Wired control options - wireless range: 1Mile in open, 300 ft indoors

• Encrypted transmission - avoids radio interference and no addressing is necessary (no dips to set)

• Mono Graphical LCD - full user interface with numerous features that are easily upgraded

• Modular design - all control axis are assignable to any of the three input devices (Force sensor, Knob, or Capacitive slider), right or left handed operation

• Solid construction - water resistant magnesium case, o-ring seals, minimal mechanical components

• 3 channel simultaneous control

• Motion control functionality - **record and repeat moves, goto preset positions automatically, settings for speed and easing

• Removable battery pack, rechargeable via usb connection

• Lens database - choose a preset lens to auto calibrate the motors to a given lens. Fully upgradeable via usb or SD card.

• Receiver unit accepts 12V-24V power source and connects to three motors, includes usb connection for use with certain digital cinema cameras

• Receiver unit dimensions are approx. 3.0"x2.0"x0.75"

• **Lens Breathing Compensation (LBC) - during a rack focus, zoom motor compensations for breathing to keep framing consistent

• **Works with Mirus motion control system - Record FIZ tracks separately or during a moco shot

** This functionality may not be in place at time of shipping but will be enabled through future software releases.

 

[chuck colburn]

Wow, impressive!