Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

BluRay or HD-DVD for Red Productions

S

Simon Dunne

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
553
Reaction score
4
Points
18
With the famous next gen DVD battle still raging on, what does everyone think will be the better option for storage and presentation for Red footage?

BluRay can hold more info, but HD-DVD does use a Red Laser!

Will the upcoming films shot on Red have any impact what soever on the way the studios want to distribute their films?

Simon
 
I'm not so sure RED will have any impact on delivery formats in terms of HD-DVD vs. BluRay. Personally, I think both are flawed formats. BluRay looks to be the superior format on paper, but Sony has yet to actually deliver a truly superior product. In the end, I don't think either format is going to win this "war". But rather we'll see a combination of universal players that play DVD, HD-DVD and BluRay discs. Some studios are also starting to distribute discs that are HD-DVD on one side and BluRay on the other side. I think Warner started that -- it's labeled TotalHD. Not a bad idea, IMO.

If you get down to the technical differences between HD-DVD and BluRay, there are few. HD-DVD's maximum rate for video spec is 37Mbps. BluRay is advertised as 54Mbps, however for the BluRay video spec, 39Mbps is the upper limit allowed. Both formats support the exact same codecs for HD delivery - MPEG2, MPEG4/AVC VC-1, and H.264. Both support the same formats: 480p 24, 30, 60; 720p 24, 30, 60; 1080i60; 1080p 24, 30, 60. PAL players substitute 50i, 60p and 25p where applicable.

BluRay does have a bit more capacity, but from a film delivery format 50GB is a bit of overkill for the bitrates and formats available. 30GB is about right, but could run into a few problems when trying to fit longer films like one of the LOTR Extended Edition films.

In terms of data storage or archival purposes, neither format makes sense. The cost per gigabyte is way too high right now. In fact, with current pricing on HD-DVD and BluRay blank media, the cost per gigabyte is the same as it is for standard DVD-R media. So that puts BD media at $33 for a double-layer (50GB) disc. There are double-layer, double-sided discs for 100GB total capacity. But that's if you don't mind flipping the disc manually and they usually sell for about $70 each unless you buy huge quantities.

On the bright side, Panasonic's newest BluRay player is arguably the best BluRay player on the market to date and is priced at < $600. Sony will have a new player this holiday season that improves on the BDP-S1 player and will sell for ~$375. So while price has been a huge sticking point for HD-DVD and especially BluRay. People are forgetting that standard DVD players were introduced at higher price points and took longer to fall into target price ranges. By this time next year, a 1080p capable BluRay player will be $250 or less. By the end of 2008, major manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic will no longer sell players that are limited to DVD and CD, but all their units will also play BluRay. Or at least that is the current plan according to Sony spokespeople at CES a few months back.

Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp is whistling the same tune, but seem a bit mroe concerned since they no longer have the price advantage, or at least not much of one. And Sony created an installed base of nearly 2M BluRay players almost overnight with the PS3 launch. But right now both formats are almost neck and neck with disc sales and anyone serious about owning movies in HD will need players for both formats due to studio divisions over the formats. LG is the only company right now with a universal player on the market, but it's priced high at $1100 and has a few issues with both formats, more so with HD-DVD. LG says their next version of the player will be significantly cheaper and will address all the menu and motion issues.
 
Don't forget that BluRay has that extra layer of copy protection (BD+). Of course that doesn't mean it has an advantage over HD-DVD. If the studios decided to change the encryption scheme on new BluRay discs because it was cracked, there might be a backlash from consumers.

http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/bdplus.cfm

I have a BluRay burner in my G5 but I'm waiting for Apple to include BluRay authoring in the next release of DVD Studio Pro. There were no new features included in DVD Studio Pro in Final Cuto Studio 2.
 
as of now both formats encription protection have been cracked ...
 
based on history ...
what ever new protection they have come up with has been crack within a few weeks ...
if i remember correctly there is no law against cracking code - it's the copying ( other then making a back up disk of a DVD you bought)
 
As doatello, it will only be a matter of weeks before any new copy protection or encryption method for these formats is defeated. The BD+ spec allows Sony to actively upgrade protection methods and even lock-out various discs and entire production runs of product if they feel piracy is starting to get out of hand. IMO, I don't see it working. In the end it's going to be too much of a hassle for consumers. And contrary to what the entertainment and software industries claim, piracy actually affects very little in the way of actual sales of their product. Or at least no one has ever been able to produce any concrete evidence showing that it does.

As for Kaleidescape, don't get too excited. They won their court case because the DVDCCA bungled nearly every step of their legal proceedings and they were too disorganized and unable to effectively argue their position. There's no guaranty that another company with a similar product will be as successful against the DVDCCA. I'm glad it worked out this way, Kaleidescape is a killer product. I'd love to have one, but they're just too expensive right now.

A friend of mine is working on a home system using the AppleTV. It's actually more an issue of workflow and setting up dedicated systems. But he has most of his DVD library as well as some HD-DVD content ripped and stored on NAS volumes and it's all accessible and playable through his aTV and the quality is quite good.
 
Interesting thread, I am almost split between Blu-ray and Hd DVD. My personal experience with Blu-ray was not so great, far from what I expected. I am not a pro video junkie (maybe a little ;) but I know a clean HD picture when I see one and I have Blu-ray by default through my Ps3, which at the time was a good value blu-player for my home. I know different titles yield different results but it just not quite there yet with the compression, too much noise etc…you all know the arguments.

With our studio down in Dumbo, we have an xbox 360 hooked up to our HD projector already so by default I picked up Microsoft’s 200 dollar HD DVD add on, great value so far. Comes with King Kong, popped it in and it blew me away seeing that huge cine image on my wall, vivid and alive! So before I was all about BD and now I don’t know what to think…just playing the waiting game like many I suppose.

Like to here anyone’s feedback on actually delivering there work on either method, and people experience backing up on either format.

I can imagine when laptops and computers have these drives by default it would useful to make a back up of the back up (who knows) of some RED precious data to disk. Maybe not…we shall see.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
As for Kaleidescape, don't get too excited. They won their court case because the DVDCCA bungled nearly every step of their legal proceedings and they were too disorganized and unable to effectively argue their position. There's no guaranty that another company with a similar product will be as successful against the DVDCCA. I'm glad it worked out this way, Kaleidescape is a killer product. I'd love to have one, but they're just too expensive right now.
Click to expand...

It helped a lot that Kaleidescape's box does not remove the CSS copy protection; it copies the disc verbatim and as such does not breach the DMCA in any way; it has a licensed CSS decrypter set for the playback side so the DVDCCA never really had a case at all.
 
cailyoung said:
It helped a lot that Kaleidescape's box does not remove the CSS copy protection; it copies the disc verbatim and as such does not breach the DMCA in any way; it has a licensed CSS decrypter set for the playback side so the DVDCCA never really had a case at all.
Click to expand...

But CSS and Macrovision encryption weren't the basis of the DVDCCA's arguments. In fact, the whole legal defense by Kaleidescape was based on showing all the things they did to keep copy protection intact -- essentailly a smokescreen over the real issue.

The real issue is perpetuated used of the media stored on the Kaleidescape server. Look at it this way, you own a Kaleidescape and you can load any DVD you want until you run out of storage. So you can join NetFlix or go to your local library or rental store or borrow a disc from a friend, etc.. You load it into Kaleidescape and then give the disc back or sell it or do whatever. You never have to touch that physical disc again, ever. The DVDCCA was up in arms because someone could borrow and rent all the movies they could conceivably copy for mere pennies on the dollar for which the movies actually sell for and have full copies of them loaded to the Kaleidescape system. Who cares if the CSS and copy protection was still in place... As if that means anything, it's not like people are going to be plugging a DVD recorder into the outputs of a Kaleidescape player and hitting record. ...Not the issue here.

Not that I'm complaining, like I said, I'm glad Kaleidescape won out. I want to see more media server systems like this on the market. There really needs to be a selection of choices for movie buffs to have convenient access and organization to large video libraries, it only makes sense. Both HD-DVD and BluRay support a copy protection form known as "managed copy", which allows a Kaleidescape type setup while still maintaining some control over who can actually play it from a media server. Or at least legal hardware that follows the rules. To my knowledge, there aren't any systems out there using managed copy just yet.
 
Haskell said:
Interesting thread, I am almost split between Blu-ray and Hd DVD. My personal experience with Blu-ray was not so great, far from what I expected. I am not a pro video junkie (maybe a little ;) but I know a clean HD picture when I see one and I have Blu-ray by default through my Ps3, which at the time was a good value blu-player for my home. I know different titles yield different results but it just not quite there yet with the co
Click to expand...

A few factors working against your initial BluRay experience... Most initial BD titles were poorly encoded MPEG2 transfers to single-layer discs. Many of the initial BD releases also had motion issues with the encoding due to bugs in Sony's authoring tools -- ooops.

And finally, the PS3 is to BluRay what the PS2 was to DVD. In other words, as a player it really just plain sucks. Video output quality is terrible compared to even marginal stand-alone players on the market.

If you want to see a fine BluRay transfer, check out Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl and watch it on a good player like the Samsung 1200 or either of the Panasonic players and be sure they're connected to a TV that accepts 1080p24 input. Wow. I didn't recommend Dead Man's Chest because, IMO, it's not as good of a transfer. It's better than many BD titles, but has some edge artifacting and softer details, not sure why.

As for HD-DVD, it started off better because it didn't need the custom authoring tools. A decent H.264 or VC1 encoder and someone who can handle XML and you're ready to go. But even with that, it still has some bad transfers... Kiss Kiss Bang Bang - yuck, barely looks any different or better than the DVD version, which comes on the other side of the disc.
 
When will they come out with a mass produced solid state format? we could get movies on cartridges.
 
"And finally, the PS3 is to BluRay what the PS2 was to DVD. In other words, as a player it really just plain sucks."

That would be dated information, as of their 1.8 update it actually f***n' rocks.

I have read in many places that Casino Royale is the best authored Bluray disc currently available, haven't seen Pirates so can't compare. But Casino was incredibly detailed on a 24" 1080p screen and a 32" 720p screen. HDMI worked without a hitch on both and looked AWESOME.

This article (via Mike from HDforIndies) is enlightening: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html
 
Currently Blu-ray has a 70/30 market share in sales, roughly. As an actual DVD producer (who pays for his inventory), it is in everyone's best interest to have one format succeed DVD. Blu-ray is the better format, supported by more Hollywood studios, also more computer companies and bigger game companies.

The price will drop faster with 3 huge industries supported by the biggest companies. Apple, Del, HP support blu-ray in computers and Sony with ps3 will kick Microsofts pathetic add on hd-dvd player in xbox 360 with less than 10% xbox 360 sales.

Thank God, Blockbuster actually chose Blu-Ray. If Best Buy and Wall Mart had the balls - the war would be over and we producers and sellers could market Blu-Ray DVDs now. If not, we have to double our inventories, half our shelf space and cut our productions in half to support 2 formats.

I rather see one format even if it sucks like VHS win over a better format... but 2 formats hurt everyone and is why things are moving slowly except for the price reduction (thanks to the war)... but we content creators are not gonna play the game until one wins in retail and commercially. HD-DVD will be dead in 1-3 years thank God and Plasma and LCD screeens will reach 100% market penetration by then and blu-ray will replace DVD very quickly.
 
the whole hd/blue thing is so lame, I would love a third option to come along that trumps both of them. Would serve them right for being so stupid.
-A
 
With the blu-tooth (pun intended) remote PS3 is the best bang-for-buck Bluray-player out there. Toshiba is slashing its prices because they want to expand their base of players, trying to convince studios to back the format up. But I don't think it's going to work. I'll give Universal six months to come around, tops. If Sony slashes the price of Playstation 3 soon (as they are rumored to do), it will be inevitable.

I for one want solid copies of the movies I purchase, downloading maybe as a substitute for renting (one time viewing), but I understand very well that people have different views on this and am for as many options as possible :)

And P.S. HD-DVD uses a blue-violet laser too, says Wikipedia.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top