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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Archiving

J

Justo

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With all of the hype over tapeless acquisition, one issue really has not been addressed yet, archiving. What formats do you intend on archiving raw footage or final projects on? Hard drives/DLT/flash/HD CAM? Then there's the problem with 4K, there is really no tape format for it. Having TB's of footage on drives for archiving purposes is just not a cost effective solution; and a lot of the new tape formats are going to recompress.

We're shooting live musical performances where we would like to archive every camera's raw footage as well as the program from the switcher. What's my best option, we're shooting 1080p (or 1080i not sure yet). It'd be awesome to shoot 4K, but it just doesn't seem practical storage/archiving wise.
 
archiving

archiving

Justo said:
With all of the hype over tapeless acquisition, one issue really has not been addressed yet, archiving. What formats do you intend on archiving raw footage or final projects on? Hard drives/DLT/flash/HD CAM? Then there's the problem with 4K, there is really no tape format for it. Having TB's of footage on drives for archiving purposes is just not a cost effective solution; and a lot of the new tape formats are going to recompress.

We're shooting live musical performances where we would like to archive every camera's raw footage as well as the program from the switcher. What's my best option, we're shooting 1080p (or 1080i not sure yet). It'd be awesome to shoot 4K, but it just doesn't seem practical storage/archiving wise.
Click to expand...

i think it all depends on what format you're capturing to. recode is just under 30 mb/sec. that's a little more than twice the data for dvcpro100 and a little less than twice for hdcam but 4 times the resolution. and if you want uncompressed hd, you're looking at way more data than even red.

you might be able to spool out hd-sdi live to your switcher for the "low-res" live edit while you capture to red drives on each redone cam in 4k. then take your 4k data and do a 4k cut for imax or whatever you would want 4k delivery for. so archiving is only a matter of doubling the storage you currently require for hd.

MB/sec * 3.6 = GB/hr
(thanks to mike curtis for this conversion tip)
 
wigby said:
MB/sec * 3.6 = GB/hr
(thanks to mike curtis for this conversion tip)
Click to expand...

It's more like MB/sec * 3.5 = GB/hr
when you're dealing with base 2 units (1 GB=1024 MB)
:nerd:
 
With all of the hype over tapeless acquisition, one issue really has not been addressed yet, archiving.
Click to expand...

Actually this has been talked to death from every possible angle.

Best solution right now looks to be multiple redundant hard drives and a 400 GB LTO copy. 200GB will be ~2 hours. Compared in price to a HDCAM deck and tapes.. it's possibly cheaper in the long run.
 
In terms of distribution methods
Let's not forget that (for features at least or any theatrical release) RED code sequences will still be written back to film from 2K scans as long as film is easier to distribute and the "per exhibition" cost remains as low as it is. It's a very durable and lasting solution.

While film is expensive, it still has a proven shelf life and really I do not believe it is going anywhere anytime soon in terms of a distribution method (do not think only about North America here, but all world markets where DIGITAL solutions will not catch up to films ease of use and ability to transport (through courier or post) and the multiple plays a film print can handle. Right now film works everywhere and until the industry as a complete worldwide whole (aka HOLLYWOOD) decides to change it, then it will stay this way.

In terms of raw footage, it seems that it would have to be LTO tape or frankly, several firewire drives attached to the films budget. This is not at all impractical with the costs of drives dropping and the level of production the RED offers to potential clients.

Actually HDCAM SR would be a great archiving solution if the price drops, but is expensive and nowhere near the quality of Film 4K or 2K, so mass data storage seems to be the way to go.

Either way the same problem exists for all "tapeless" solutions, but at leaset RED has made teh gathering, with large drives, much more practical.

David



David
 
Mr. Data

Mr. Data

There are plenty of IT resources available to deal with archiving data. Follow the usual precautions; at least two copies stored in separate places, re-copy every few years to newer topologies, etc.

Remember that data is data and that copying files does not require super high speed / high cost per TB solutions. In my own planning I am also careful not to make a big commitment to massive storage solutions any sooner than I have to since capacities and prices improve daily. Sort of like just in time inventory philosophy.

The great thing is that the cost per minute of archiving data is getting closer to the cost of tape stock every day.
 
Actually I think the rest of the world is going to be miles ahead of the US in terms of digital distribution. It won't be DCI spec but I think the mega theater with 4k projector, THX certified sound and 250 foot screen is a relatively American phenomenon.

If you include all of the bedsheet and DVD player theaters around the world, I would say a majority of theaterical releases are projected digitally already.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Actually I think the rest of the world is going to be miles ahead of the US in terms of digital distribution. It won't be DCI spec but I think the mega theater with 4k projector, THX certified sound and 250 foot screen is a relatively American phenomenon.

If you include all of the bedsheet and DVD player theaters around the world, I would say a majority of theaterical releases are projected digitally already.
Click to expand...

This is a great way of looking at it. I think that the thing holding back digital projection right now (in major US theaters) is bulb life. You can get many many more screenings out of a film projector than you can a digital projector.

Low cost small screen distribution (hd DVD or BLUray perhaps) will be available in the home, so the implications of the how the "movie experience" shakes down will be interesting.

It's nice for us to see high quality film prints and the can be delivered in a theater at a reasonable cost per exhibition. I agree that a digital high (equal quality experience) needs replace film projectors. I wonder who is going to make the investment in that. There don't seem to be as many 2K Chiristie projection theaters as we thought there would be and they have been around for a while now. The cost is still holding it back from being a full replacement for film projection.

I never saw the 4K, but to me. That 's the experience I want to pay the extra bucks for in a theater experience.

David
 
Archiving options.

Archiving options.

Justo said:
What formats do you intend on archiving raw footage or final projects on? Hard drives/DLT/flash/HD CAM? Then there's the problem with 4K, there is really no tape format for it. Having TB's of footage on drives for archiving purposes is just not a cost effective solution; and a lot of the new tape formats are going to recompress.
Click to expand...

I think there is a good solution for this. Take a look at the Quantum LTO-3 A-series network drive. GigaBit Ethernet connection to Mac OSX or Win XP. Specs - 68MB/s max transfer rate (544Mb/s, or 3.5 x faster data throughput than HDCAM - and more than 2 x faster than real time transfer of REDCODE 4K RAW data) about $8K (25% of lowest HDCAM recorder - not player - pricing) and tapes around $50 - which hold more than 3 hours of 4K camera original footage (so about 30% of HDCAM tape stock prices)
 
Stuart English said:
... 68MB/s max transfer rate (544Mb/s, or 3.5 x faster data throughput than HDCAM - and more than 2 x faster than real time transfer of uncompressed RED 4K RAW data)
Click to expand...

Stuart I believe you mean 2x the speed of *REDCode 4k Raw Data.

68MB/s is no where near even real-time uncompressed 4k.
 
battistella said:
Low cost small screen distribution (hd DVD or BLUray perhaps) will be available in the home, so the implications of the how the "movie experience" shakes down will be interesting.

I never saw the 4K, but to me. That 's the experience I want to pay the extra bucks for in a theater experience.

David
Click to expand...

I wonder if (Manitou, Jehosaphat, Allah, etc. forbid) a multiple theater terrorism incident may not make the "theater experience" less attractive? If that happens, the home theater or "neighborhood theater" will be the way our content will be viewed, and that will of course, be digital.
 
battistella said:
This is a great way of looking at it. I think that the thing holding back digital projection right now (in major US theaters) is bulb life. You can get many many more screenings out of a film projector than you can a digital projector.

Low cost small screen distribution (hd DVD or BLUray perhaps) will be available in the home, so the implications of the how the "movie experience" shakes down will be interesting.

It's nice for us to see high quality film prints and the can be delivered in a theater at a reasonable cost per exhibition. I agree that a digital high (equal quality experience) needs replace film projectors. I wonder who is going to make the investment in that. There don't seem to be as many 2K Chiristie projection theaters as we thought there would be and they have been around for a while now. The cost is still holding it back from being a full replacement for film projection.

I never saw the 4K, but to me. That 's the experience I want to pay the extra bucks for in a theater experience.

David
Click to expand...

Let's see what DCIP does, but the "tipping point" is at hand ...

If there ever was a company IN THE RIGHT PLACE, AT THE RIGHT TIME with the RIGHT TECHNOLOGY - it's REALD (http://www.reald-corporate.com/)

Digital Cinema Implementation Partners (DCIP) is a joint venture of the three biggest theater chains, Regal Entertainment (RGC ), AMC Theatres, and Cinemark (CNK ).

This summer could be the tipping point in the digital transition, as the number of U.S. theaters capable of showing movies in digital form finally exceeds 10% of the 35,000 U.S. screens.

I think we drifted off topic ... ooops!
 
number6 said:
I wonder if (Manitou, Jehosaphat, Allah, etc. forbid) a multiple theater terrorism incident may not make the "theater experience" less attractive? If that happens, the home theater or "neighborhood theater" will be the way our content will be viewed, and that will of course, be digital.
Click to expand...

Are you actually suggesting that global terrorism will force us into our homes and ensure that the movie experience will solely exist in the comfort of our own home theater????

David
 
Regarding the Quantum SDLT 600A, Spec-comm has this at $6k. Seems to be a great solution.

Peter
 
Justo said:
What formats do you intend on archiving raw footage or final projects on? Hard drives/DLT/flash/HD CAM? Then there's the problem with 4K, there is really no tape format for it. Having TB's of footage on drives for archiving purposes is just not a cost effective solution; and a lot of the new tape formats are going to recompress.
Click to expand...

I've been doing the math on this one in my spare time. Here's what I have come up with:

Cost per hour of media (approximate):
DV/HDV $5
Betacam $25
HDCam $70 +
DVCPro HD $70 +
Red RAW 4k on firewire drives $34
Red RAW 4k on LTO-4 (800GB) tapes $15
(you might want to double the last two to create a duplicate backup for safety)

Initial costs:
DV/HDV deck $2000 +
Betacam deck $4000 +
HDCam recorder $40K+
DVCPro HD recorder $25K+
Firewire drives [no cost beyond media]
LTO-4 tape unit $4000+

I like firewire drives because they're simple, almost universally compatible, easy to put back online, and have no initial cost outlay. All for about the same price as pro HD tape, billable to the client.
 
One small change to your numbers which otherwise look pretty good.

Double the LTO cost per hour because you'll only probably get 400 GB out of an '800 GB' tape since there will be very little room for compression of the REDCode data.
 
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