Colour monitoring on an apple display

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Is anyone monitoring their "FCP Colour" grading on an Apple display? From what I've read it is impossible to do accurately, even if I correctly colour calibrate my monitor. I know about the Matrox MXO, and it's a clever piece of kit, but if you are not grading interlaced media (RED's progressive yeah), and not wanting to output to tape, it's seems overkill to buy it just to calibrate a monitor...:wacko: Also, what if I want to grade for digital projection?
The whole RED project is great because its about making the impossible possible. It just weird that monitoring colour grading on an apple display is impossible when professional photographers use such displays all the time to correct and print their photos..
I'm sure all you learned people will tell me why I'm crazy...:waaa:

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Line 'em up

Line 'em up

First off all I have read enough of your posts to believe you are crazy :sarcasm:

Second: there are a ton of factors that influence the visual perception of color and other key image features in different viewing situations. The Apple Cinema displays have a variety of specific characteristics inherent to their physical design, just like every other display device. Yes D-Max, pixel count, gamut, etc matter BUT, I think the real issue for every LCD screen I have ever seen is the uneven shifts in gamma that result from relatively small changes in the viewers position relative to the display.

Sidebar- If you do decide to use an LCD as a field monitor come up with a way to line yourself up with it the same way every time you check the image. You might still be a bit off on judging densities by eye, but you'll be off very consistently and not by much.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Line 'em up

Line 'em up

First off all I have read enough of your posts to believe you are crazy :sarcasm:

Second: there are a ton of factors that influence the visual perception of color and other key image features in different viewing situations. The Apple Cinema displays have a variety of specific characteristics inherent to their physical design, just like every other display device. Yes D-Max, pixel count, gamut, etc matter BUT, I think the real issue for every LCD screen I have ever seen is the uneven shifts in gamma that result from relatively small changes in the viewers position relative to the display.

Sidebar- If you do decide to use an LCD as a field monitor come up with a way to line yourself up with it the same way every time you check the image. You might still be a bit off on judging densities by eye, but you'll be off very consistently and not by much.

 

[Bruce Allen]

At the lovely company I work at (mOcean), I have done a lot of relatively big-name stuff for theatrical and broadcast using standard LCD and CRT monitors - LaCie, Apple, etc. For example - Borat end titles, every theatrical or TV spot for Ocean's 13, etc. At my previous workplace we used Dell, NEC and Apple. We just make sure to go through one final high-end color session before printing to film, where someone will theoretically fix any overall color bias caused by our monitors.

It's like this: be consistent to yourself and don't clip the data. Then any decent monitor will do. Just make sure you have one final grading stage where you set the final tone before you print to film, etc.

On the other hand, if you are selling yourself as that "absolute final grading stage", then you need the highest-end equipment.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

lol
:clown2:
We've been rumbled! Yes when I and the other "guests" of Bedlam State Hospital were told to use film to "help us re-imagine our relationship with reality" as the good Doctor puts it. We didn't where to start lookin', but when I found a company proposing to make a 4k 35mm Digital film camera for less than $20k, we knew we had found friends of like mind. Jim! We at the Bedlam State Penitentiary for the Criminally Insane are your biggest fans...

Blair & Bruce: We're gonna take your advice and ask Nurse Mary to rush out and buy us all a 30" Apple Display; I know we've got her tied-up around here somewhere...

:help:

Blair: My good friend Napoleon here would like to add that he is big fan of your work. I dunno if that's a good thing huh.. :bye2:

 

[sbroock]

LCD for Pro Monitoring?

LCD for Pro Monitoring?

At the lovely company I work at (mOcean), I have done a lot of relatively big-name stuff for theatrical and broadcast using standard LCD and CRT monitors - LaCie, Apple, etc.

This is a really timely thread. And Bruce, say Hi to Kevin for me. I've been a huge fan of you guys ever since the Monsters work you did for VOOM.

To the point ... I'm looking to equip a new Mac Pro 8 Core Final Cut station, and my original thought was to add a Sony 14" PVM CRT for broadcast monitoring. I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention, but they were discontinued (fact check, anyone?).

After research, it looks like the JVC 15" or 17" monitor is a good NTSC CRT option.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Panasonic BT-LH1700? I hadn't thought about a professional LCD for monitoring before, but it claims to have a feature that covers the NTSC color space with appropriate gamma correction.

Are "professional" LCDs really a true replacement for CRT monitoring?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

If we deliver on HD (for broadcast) are we still working in the NTSC or PAL space?
What is PAL Gamma? Is it 2.2?

 

[Rob Powell]

We're building a similar Mac system. The JVC DT-V24L1DU LCD display has been recommended as the best overall choice (i.e. best color accuracy/gamma) in the $4-5K price range. Don't have any personal experience with the monitor, but it's been recommended by several sources.

 

[GlennChan]

I think for PAL, in practice, the transfer function in the camera should be Rec. 709 (for HD). For monitoring, the transfer function of the monitor is whatever a CRT's transfer function is. (Note that there's an intentional mismatch between the camera's transfer function and the monitor's transfer function.) See thor olson's "behind gamma's disguise" for info on a CRT's transfer function:
http://www.nightscapes.net/techniques/TechnicalPapers/index.html

2- Unfortunately I do not believe that the monitor's transfer function is standardized. Before it was implicit that you use a CRT broadcast monitor. Now some manufacturers making LCD broadcast monitors seem to use a gamma of 2.2.

Poynton's gamma FAQ:

11. Does PAL use a gamma of 2.8?

Standards for 625/50 systems mention an exponent of 2.8 at the decoder, however this value is unrealistically high to be used in practice. If an exponent different from 0.45 is chosen for a power function with a linear segment near black like Rec. 709, the other parameters need to be changed to maintain function and tangent continuity.

http://www.poynton.com/notes/colour_and_gamma/GammaFAQ.html#PAL

2- If you deliver on HD for broadcast, you are likely targeting Rec. 709 color space. (There was a transitional 1035i format with SMPTE C colorimetry... but nobody uses that anymore.)

Rec. 709 color space:
Transfer function: Rec. 709 (see poynton's gamma FAQ).
Primaries (the exact color/chromaticity of red, green, blue): Rec. 709 primaries, not EBU or SMPTE C
White Point: Still D65

Are "professional" LCDs really a true replacement for CRT monitoring?

Well something should really replace the CRT for HD since:
- Most people watching HD are watching on a flat panel, not CRT.
- CRTs don't do full 1920x1080 resolution well.
- CRTs tend to hide compression noise and other noise. This will likely be an issue for HD, since there is limited bandwidth for broadcasting (and governments want to sell bandwidth for non-TV uses) so material will be heavily compressed.

- The highest-end broadcast LCDs seem to have better black level + contrast ratio than a CRT does. The eCinemasys DPX line seems to do this. Sony's BVM-L LCD panel does not have better black level than CRTs on dark scenes.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

GlennChan you totally rule

 

[Costelloe Michael]

The rub is that you should really refer to your final output and monitor off what you feel most matches the destination of your medium. Unfortunately this is never going to happen. Either you optimise for a particular system whether it be big screen, LCD or CRT or you compromise.

I'm looking at both HD LCD and CRT combined as occasionally you may have interlaced in play through your system and really I like to check the blacks on a CRT, old habits die hard. At some point if I get convinced I'll cahnge to LCD, or replacement, for conveniencs

 

[Nick Shaw]

I use a CRT broadcast monitor to work off, and a consumer LCD screen as a client monitor. When sitting back to view the film as a whole, I watch it on the LCD, as that is what I assume most viewers will see it on. I'm not dealing generally with stuff that is going to be projected theatrically. If it was, I would also want to see it on the closest match I could get to that.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I use a JVC DT-V24L1D and it's very good for brodcast.
never use computer monitors for color evaluation it isn't accurate at all.
Move to LCD monitoring cuz people watching use LCD.

I've bought after reading some review
This is one:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

"I couldn't get the eCinema's blacks anywhere near the JVC LCD's and the Sony CRT's richness. I found this very surprising, considering the price difference between the units."

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I totally respect the opinion that one should not trust a computer display etc. But it does seem funny to me that professional photographers manage to grade one image perfectly happily for delivery to different media on a properly calibrated high-end consumer lcd (like the apple display), while we video professionals find it impossible to do..

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I totally respect the opinion that one should not trust a computer display etc. But it does seem funny to me that professional photographers manage to grade one image perfectly happily for delivery to different media on a properly calibrated high-end consumer lcd (like the apple display), while we video professionals find it impossible to do..

I found out that video professionals "playing nuts" with their use of CTR monitors. It is just about an arrogancy. LCD will rule a whole the market soon. CTR is dead now.

 

[GlennChan]

For video work, it can still be useful to use an external monitor.

For SD:
-It's useful to watch your work on a CRT that overscans, so you have a heads up about picture elements being cropped off.
-A CRT will let you spot interlace flicker. A lot of people will still be watching SD material on CRTs... e.g. people on cable.
-A CRT will do non-square pixels well without weird scaling artifacts.
-You could also monitor for cross-color artifacts (for people with composite connections)... the weird moire/rainbow colors on black and white patterns, and the dot crawl. If NTSC encoders + decoders were designed well, it is possible to eliminate these artifacts. But consumers don't care enough, so they don't buy better NTSC decoders (and broadcasters don't install better encoders).

For HD:
-If interlaced material is going to a flat-panel, it is necessary to de-interlace the signal. Most NLEs tend to do a very poor job at this, and do not necessarily show you both fields. A broadcast monitor will tend to have a decent de-interlacer built-in.
-Calibrating the monitor with a 3-D LUT probably won't be implemented by your NLE. So again a broadcast monitor is a better idea here. *I don't believe the Sony Lumas are calibrated this way; but even if they were, their colors are definitely wacky.
For print, this is easier to do because you don't have to worry about real-time performance so much.

In general:
-Some/many NLEs just don't show you a very accurate preview picture. It may not show you both fields, may get the scaling wrong (esp. with non-square pixels), may not have accurate color (video card overlays, in Vegas studio RGB vs computer RGB, etc.), doesn't necessarily show you overscan, etc.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

See it now

See it now

I recently picked up an eCinema DCM-23 and I agree that the blacks are a touch weak. I still like the color accuracy and the fact that it can actually display 24 fps at 24 fps.

LCD vs CRT is an interesting academic discussion but as CRT production is being curtailed due to toxin issues I would suggest we argue LCD vs other newer display tech: LCoS, DLP, PDP, etc...

I am a big believer in the value of a true read of your footage and consider a dead nuts monitor essential to in house finishing work. Perhaps more critical for the workflow I envision for the RedOne is being able to do the one light pass in RedCine on the fly on location - if possible using LUTs that mimic the target output parameters.

Me to Producer/Director/DoP: If I could roll a minute of video on set during the final lighting fine tune and take it back to the van for a quick run through RedCine for a look at the look with target LUT applied would you be interested in something like that?

I'm banking on the answer being "hell yes".

 

[Bruce Allen]

Me to Producer/Director/DoP: If I could roll a minute of video on set during the final lighting fine tune and take it back to the van for a quick run through RedCine for a look at the look with target LUT applied would you be interested in something like that?

I'm banking on the answer being "hell yes".

As DP, yes. As Director, not too often. I need to be there on set, talking to people and keeping the energy high. If you can bring that screen on set for me to look at, then yes.

It would be a very useful tool to get production design and camera sections on the same page, though. I'm usually more concerned about prod design anyway by that point - the subtleties of achieving the look are mostly the DP's business by then... If we could all walk over there (quickly!) and huddle, it'd be cool once in a while... but again, I'd sacrifice color accuracy for just having a rough LUT preview on hand on set.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Looky loos

Looky loos

I will have the eCinema monitor on a VESA arm on a rolling cart (Magliner-ish) with some sort of hood but it would still be a very compromised viewing environment due to ambient lighting, retinal lag, etc. Ultimately, I will present the options to the DoP and/or the Director and/or the Producer and provide the solution they choose - after all, they're paying my day rate.

Perhaps the most efficient scenario will include rolling the monitor on set most of the day and then during any extended holds or at the end of the day the DoP can sit down and critically evaluate that days footage.

I am also looking to provide a solution prior to the enabling of the live HD-SDI output (I have serial #19 which I expect will not have any live outputs other than the EVF, LCD and un de-bayered RedCodeRAW) which is why I was proposing to roll 30 seconds of footage during the lighting fine tune and/or makeup check, then pull the media off the camera and run it back to the van or cart, ingest it into RedCine, and play it out via my AJA card on the eCinema monitor.

Before I get attacked for this plan, yes, I realize that all that running around will only be practical when the situation allows it.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I am also looking to provide a solution prior to the enabling of the live HD-SDI output (I have serial #19 which I expect will not have any live outputs other than the EVF, LCD and un de-bayered RedCodeRAW) which is why I was proposing to roll 30 seconds of footage during the lighting fine tune and/or makeup check, then pull the media off the camera and run it back to the van or cart, ingest it into RedCine, and play it out via my AJA card on the eCinema monitor.

Before I get attacked for this plan, yes, I realize that all that running around will only be practical when the situation allows it.

Blair, that sounds like a very good plan, especially for early reservation holders. Let's face it, any people not in our Red camp are going to be scared stiff that the camera will screw something up. So show them some footage and it'll put them all at ease. If I were directing an early Red shoot, I'd make a point of getting everyone on the crew to look at your monitor, just so that they can be reassured and inspired by the quality of the footage and the ease of the workflow.

Nothing's more demoralizing than working on a film when in the back of your mind you're thinking "there's a 50/50 chance that we're going to re-shoot this whole day because of camera technical problems". Even if those fears are totally unjustified with Red, it'll be very important to dispel them completely. After a while though, I expect fear-dispelling not to be necessary

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com