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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Data workflow for high-end online (broadcast/TV)?

I'm quite surprised by this. I'm sort of a Windows user and have done most my editing on Sony Vegas. I can just drop any framerate in any timeline. Too bad it's 8-bit only at the moment.
 
How does it deal with off-rate frames though - does it add proper pulldown?

Graeme
 
Final Cut will let you drop a clip of any frame rate in a time-line of any frame rate, and you can edit with it. It's just controlling how it converts between the frame rates for final quality mastering that is an issue. Graeme's standards conversion plug-ins certainly help.

I have done edits with a mix of NTSC and PAL rushes, and been able to work with them in the same time-line. It's just that once the cut was locked, it took a fair bit of fiddling to get the best final result. It didn't help that some of the NTSC footage was film originated with pull-down, and some was 'real' 60i. I didn't have Graeme's plug-ins at the time, so there was a lot of bouncing back and forth to After Effects!

Nick
 
Hello Rob,
Yes I used Vegas until the HVX200 came out. Made the switch to FCP.
It was hard at first but now I would not go back. Especially now that it looks like RED footage will be more comfortable in FCP.
 
I think a reasonable solution for Red is to allow Redcine to add pulldown if necessary, and pay attention to the details (i.e. in EDLs, Red pull list). Convert all your 24p footage to 60i, and edit the footage as if it were 60i.
 
from my experience - 23.976 & 24fps are two different frame rates when editing ...
if you have a 23.976 time line and you drop a true 24fps clip in it - the NLE does not slow the clip down so it plays back at 23.976 it converts the clip to 23.976 ( it will drop a frame/field every X sec- which is different the slowing it down to 23.976 which would not drop any frame/fields ) ....

AE can change the speed of a clip from 24fps to 23.976 ( slowing it down)..or it can convert it to 23.976 by drpping a frame/field every X sec ...
 
donatello said:
the NLE does not slow the clip down
Click to expand...

'm assuming you are talking about a specific NLE? At least some NLE's let you choose which way you want to go (with a default when you drop the clip in)
 
i don't know of a NLE that slows/speeds up a clip that has a different frame rate once the properties of the project is set ( as in change the speed of the clip without adding/deleting fields/frames)
24 & 23.976 are pretty close - so it's a bit hard for the mind to really think it would make a difference ...
the mind can see the difference if you take a 29.97 clip and drop it into a 23.976 TL it doesn't slow the clip down - it drops frames/fields to get the speed down to 23.976.. or if you take a 23.976 clip and drop it in a 29.97 TL it doesn't speed it up - it adds frames/fields to equal 29.97 fps ..
 
I'm pretty sure FCP let's you mix 23.976 and 24 fps on the same time-line without dropping frames. I always thought the only real difference was drop frame and non drop frame time-code. But what do I know. I normally work at 25 fps.

Nick
 
Following on from my last comment, I just did a test in FCP, and you can indeed drop a 24 fps clip into a 23.976 fps timeline. It just treats it as if it was at the time-line frame rate, and goes in frame for frame.

Nick
 
Strange how posts morph. Glen's original post didn't much deal with the 23.976 24fps dichotomy.

It seems to me a more central question about this proposed workflow is the assumption of ownership of RED Cine by the online facility. Will part of RED Cine be given away like quick time player etc. Will the Online facility have to buy it. Will we then be limited to facilities who own RED Cine??
 
tj williams said:
Will we then be limited to facilities who own RED Cine??
Click to expand...

If you want to online HDCam, you need to go to an online facility that owns HDCam decks. It's not that different.

Of course anyone can rent an HDCam deck. Maybe REDCINE licenses will be 'rentable', or maybe they will just have to out-source the conversion to somebody who does have a REDCINE license. I have a post facility who will have a REDCINE license, so in some ways I have a vested interest in it not being freely available.

But of course if RED ONE becomes as big as we all hope it will be, then it will become the next 'must have' format for facilities. Maybe REDCODE RGB will be the new standard for mastering!
 
Hi Nick
Yes I see why you would be interested in restricting the license for RED Cine.
You also own a red camera. Will it only shoot for your post? We often rent an F900 from a company who also does post but post at a different company. In that kind of situation your days of rental, might depend on the preferred editorial company accepting RED Files.
 
tj williams said:
Hi Nick
Yes I see why you would be interested in restricting the license for RED Cine.
You also own a red camera. Will it only shoot for your post? We often rent an F900 from a company who also does post but post at a different company. In that kind of situation your days of rental, might depend on the preferred editorial company accepting RED Files.
Click to expand...

I don't intend to dry hire my RED out. I am working with a director (who has also reserved a RED, for backup and two camera shoots) and a couple of cameramen. We hope to offer a complete shoot and post solution. We are also considering the option of forming a production company.
 
donatello said:
i don't know of a NLE that slows/speeds up a clip that has a different frame rate once the properties of the project is set ( as in change the speed of the clip without adding/deleting fields/frames)
24 & 23.976 are pretty close - so it's a bit hard for the mind to really think it would make a difference ...
Click to expand...

I know of one - the entire Avid family of products.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles (but now in an airport lounge in Manila)
 
I know of another, Sony Vegas. Unless I'm reading your statement wrong. Are you saying you know of no NLE that can do this or no NLE that does "it" (and that's what I don't 100% understand from your post) automatically?
 
i know of no NLE that changes the play back speed (drop a 29.97 clip and it plays it back at 23.976 as in keeping every frame so it should be playing it back slightly slo-mo- i know AE can do it as a effect) ..all the NLE's i know add or drop fields/frames so it ends up at speed of project properties ...

so you have a film clip scan at true 24fps ... then you take same film clip and have it telecined at 23.976 ... choose a 23.976 or 24fps project properties - then drop both clips into TL ( video track 1 & 2) = they will start out perfectly matched on 1st frame ... go down TL 10 min and the frames no longer match ( one clip might be 1-2 frames ahead or behind )

i use VEGAS ... drop any frame rate into Vegas and it will convert it to whatever frame rate is set in the properties by either dropping or adding frames/fields ..set project properties to 23.976 and drop a 24fps clip into it and it will drop a frame/field every X seconds ...
set project properties to 24fps drop in 23.976 clip and vegas will add a frame/field to it every X seconds ...
 
Yes, but you can right-click on a clip in Vegas and change the frame rate of the clip (doing what you want). Unfortunately I do not have Vegas installed here at the moment so can't really give you specifics. I'm pretty sure it's there though.
 
re: Vegas - clip playback speed
yes but changing the playback speed is no different then if you use Ctrl & mouse to drag end of clip shorter or longer (slo-mo/fastmo) ... from what i can see if you set playback to 2X it skips every other frame on playback ( 30fps progressive clip with progressive project propteries - it appears to handle interlace different & i have no time for interlace ) ... changing the playback to .5 appears to just double every frame ..
so in the end Vegas adjust the speed by either adding or deleting frames/fields ....
 
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