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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K BATTLE: Red , Phantom65 , Genesis and Dalsa

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najafi/didarfilm

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Hi all ,
it seems the battle is getting started:

RED : the most affordable with the most amount of features.
www.red.com

PHANTOM 65 : i believe the most powerful rival for RED , best suited for visual-effects and slo-mo cinematography.
www.visionresearch.com

Genesis : from the most famous camera producer , is gaining acceptability between DP's specially after shooting Mel Gibson's Apocalypto with it.
www.panavision.com

Dalsa Origin : the first 4k claimer , i believe is losing the battle becouse has not yet updated the features.
www.dalsa.com

what's your idea , who is the winner ?

i believe RED , becouse of it's marketing and management top strategies. but rivals are stronger , RED should speed-up, hmm ?
 
in the recent issue of American Cinematographer is an article about the Dalsa Origin. To make it short: The shoots (Commercial for Snickers amongst other) convinced the Cinematographers (Rolf Kestermann | David Stump, ASC). David Stump actually "loved the camera" and states that neither its size nor the needed tether bothered him. He also liked the optical viewfinder a lot.

Seems as if Dalsa is making some points...
never heard of the Phantom 65 though... will go on reading ;-)
 
Milan, I don't think it's a 4k camera though as you need an anamorphic lens to get the 4k. I think the real pixel dimensions are nearer the quoted "flat" 2400x1350.

Graeme
 
Yes, it does seem rather odd to claim in the specs that the resolution is suddenly magically greater when you use an anamorpthic (sic) lens!

Nick
 
Graeme, you are right, the sensor is 2400x1350 with standard lenses. What this anamorphic lens do to make it close to the 4K?
 
Well, when you record the image with a flat lens, the sensor gives you 2400 pixels across. When you use an anamorphic lens, it squashes the light into that 2400 pixels. When you stretch the image back out in post (ie, scale it) the image looks "right" when it's 4000 pixels across, but those extra pixels are just rough guesstimates of what it really would have looked like if you'd had 4000 pixels. I'd expect it to be a very soft looking 4k. Anyone got any images from this interesting camera??

Graeme
 
najafi/didarfilm, why have you included Genesis which is a 1080p camera in the 4k "Battle"?

Graeme
 
It's a bit like cheap scanners, which often claim to have a resolution of "XXXX DPI (interpolated)"!

Nick
 
The phantom has an interesting dynamic range test... each square has a grid pattern. Is that in order to determine the point where the noise is effectively greater than the discernable image?
 
Well this one time you can Honestly say the reason "Sony's" Upcoming 4k Camera was not included is because it's "Vaporware" : )
 
Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge. A shame, because the core imaging technology is fantastic - which may have been their downfall, when it seemed they set out to make a no-compromises imaging platform. The problem is, some compromises are necessary with current technology - uncompressed 4K is still pricey and cumbersome with current tech, the recording methodology is physically large, tethered and unwieldy, the camera at present is still quite large and heavy, and the price point for the entire package is still quite steep.

Technology is only as relevant as its price point.

-mike
 
MikeCurtis said:
Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge.
-mike
Click to expand...

Yes reading the posts on CML it seemed there was an exodus of Dalsa staff.
Any reason given? Hmm I wonder where talented 4K camera engineers go to further their careers and knowledge...
 
Seems to me that any comparisons made should include workflow. And prices. But it all is mildly hypothetical until every product begins shipping...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Seems to me that any comparisons made should include workflow. And prices. But it all is mildly hypothetical until every product begins shipping...

Jim
Click to expand...

Indeed. The Phantom is a very interesting camera, but it's $150,000+ w/o lenses.
 
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