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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

detachable back plate for buttons, similar to a car stereo's detachable face?

What they are asking for is what you would expect to see on may Pro video cameras and even the DVX100. Basically knobs that are recessed when they are set and you push them to pop them out to adjust. It's like a rotary knob on a mixer. You only need two because you can have a switch that changes the control from first 2 channels to other 2 channels. I agree that this is probably an important feature and shouldn't be overlooked.

Steve
 
Sorry lefties... but pleasing 85% on the right is better than 0% percent on the back covered with batteries. Thank God, humans are adaptable - it's amazing how lefties learn to write left to right upside down, on right handed desks! Amazing... Maybe we could mount the camera upside down on the left and flip it in post... ;-) Seriously though, keep it on the back for the lefties, and let us righties have it where the rest of the world works.
 
Stuart English said:
Before I can answer that question, we need to get some clarifiction of the meaning of : being "able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs"

For example, how many channels of audio are you expecting to adjust. From what location on the camera? What monitoring options are you expecting?
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2 knobs would work great as just as Steve describes them maybe have 1 knob that you can switch controls between channels 1 & 2 and a knob that you can switch between channels 3 & 4. They could pop out as Steve mentions or even just be a disc that spins like on sony beta and HD cameras or even maybe a great system you guys come up with. The important part is that while shooting you can reach the spot on the camera where it is at and adjust it without having to lose the shot. It will usually only be needed on the fly for quick and dirty shooting. I will give an example below:

Lets say you are working on a documentary about the environment and and you are located somewhere where the president is walking by you. Your reporter will maybe have time to ask one or two questions before the president walks by. You have no idea ahead of time how loud or quiet the president will talk so you need to be able to adjust the audio channels while rolling on the interview. In this situation and many others you would not have time to ask the president if he could just say a few things to get audio levels set before the actual questions get asked.

As far as monitoring the audio levels their should be audio level bars that show up in the viewfinder and picture LCD so you can see when they are set to peak. This audio viewing feature could be turned on or off in a menu somewhere so that when you are shooting documentary/EFP/Eng style you could have it on if you wanted and when shooting with a sound man with a mixer you could just turn that audio viewing feature off.

This is a feature that is an absolute must for doc/EFP/ENG shooters so they should be really speaking up for this. I am a commercial/tv series/feature guy but I do the odd EFP style work so I know I will need it from time to time. I am not quite sure why more are not speaking up on this issue. This is a standard feature on any camera over $3,000 so its not like its a new thing or something out of the ordinary. It is a standard feature that is often used on any profesional camera.

If someone could find and post some pictures of what they look like on a HD sony or even the HVX or DVX would be great. Everyone who ordered the camera needs to speak up for this or you will be very disapointed if this camera does not have this feature (The camera will be much less versitile and for people who want to rent out there camera it will be in much lower demand).

Sorry for this being so long but I guess I was doing a poor job of explaining this feature in my shorter posts.
 
And auto limiters - would they work? It would be nice if some things like this could be switched to auto mode... or am I dreaming?
 
Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras. They will work in a pinch but how does it know which sound you are actually setting the audio for.

I forgot to answer your one other question Stuart about where the audio knobs should be located? Personally it does not matter to me where they are located as users will get used to where ever you guys feel is the most convienient place to put them, They just absolutely have to be in a position that can be reached while shooting.
 
Finner said:
Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras. They will work in a pinch but how does it know which sound you are actually setting the audio for.
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Not knowing much about audio I was imagining that for narrative productions all 4 audio channels would be run through a mixer and levels set by a professional audio guy. But for run and gun ENG scenarios like you described I'd be grateful of an auto mode - as an option.

Finner said:
I forgot to answer your one other question Stuart about where the audio knobs should be located? Personally it does not matter to me where they are located as users will get used to where ever you guys feel is the most convienient place to put them, They just absolutely have to be in a position that can be reached while shooting.
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How about the smart side. Bottom left. :)
 
filmnorth said:
Long live the sound recordist! :)

What about a remote fader (pot) you could plug in and say velcro to the handle/cage/tripod handle etc??
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they need to be on the camera
 
Finner said:
Audio limiters are for $500 handi-cams not profesional cameras.
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I'm not sure I agree with that. Don't most professional ENG cameras have auto modes on the audio? We are talking about good quality limiters here, not horrible auto gain controls that gradually creep up an up during quiet patches, then clamp down hard as soon as somebody talks.

I personally would prefer the Red to have a limiter which could be switched on and off. Most of the time, if the audio level is set correctly, a limiter has no effect on the signal. But in the situation where there is a sudden increase in audio level, a bit of compression is a lot more acceptable than clipping.

This is obviously only useful for ENG/documentary work. For drama obviously you would have a sound recordist, and if the audio clips you just do a re-take.

Nick
 
Your right Nick every profesional camera HD/beta that I have worked with has audio limiters as a feature but they are only used in rare occasions. Most profesionals take the 10 seconds or so to set a level themselves.
 
Another audio idea: it would be cool if RED could offer an "audio only mode" for doing wild takes of dialogue. No reason to take up valuable picture data if you are just recording wild sound.
 
there seems to be 2 needs here ..
1) solo cameraperson need controls in X place ...
2) if using a AC = needs controls in totally different places ..

can't there be some kind of remote LCD unit ( for shutter,fps etc - not picture) that plugs into body and then attaches anywhere one would like it on camera ?

i don't mind the info on the back LCD ..for some situations i might prefer having the info so i can see it below the EFV ( might even look at it with left eye as right eye is viewing thru EFV ... if i have a AC i know they would like it on whatever side of the camera they are using to pull focus ... now of course this remote LCD would be a accessory at extra $$$
 
A similar topic was discussed back in September, regarding the ability to record audio while shooting off-speed.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=72815

At the time Greame replied:

"I think all we can do for audio in off-speed modes is record it to a seperate file and let you do with it what you will."

I certainly hope that this is still being considered as it would be a REALLY valuable function.

But now I'm getting WAY off topic.
 
Audio

Audio

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..
 
Stuart English said:
This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?
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I will try and address this question the best I can. I am much more of a commercial/feature shooter though then an EFP/ENG guy so it would be great for some people with more experience in this field to weigh in on this. I think Gibby with all the experience he has in this area could shed some better light on it.

Heres what I feel. In a single user situation I think access to adjust 2 channels of audio would be good enough (1 channel for the interviewers mic and one for the ambient shotgun mic mounted on the camera). I would not really want to use them as a stereo pair as I would probably only use the interview mic and have the camera mount sound just as a safety. As far as where the location of the "pots" to set the level goes it really does not to me as long as it can be reached with one hand while shooting. I have no idea about the engineering challenges you guys are facing to make this camera fit together and work so it would be unfair for me to say that the "pots" have to be in X position. I think the best determining factor of where the "pots" should go would be if you guys on the red team discussed and figured out the various positions the pots could go and then throw one of the test bodies on your shoulder and reach around to those different positions on the camera that you could put them. At that point it should be easy to determine the best position for the audio control "pots".

Upon thinking on this further in EFP/ENG shoulder shooting you are usually holding the camera with your shoulder and right hand to balance it and use your left hand to adjust focus, iris, zoom (if not power zoom) and audio. So the "pots" should be located somewhere that can be reached with your left hand. So I guess audio adjustment pots would be best on the viewfinder or smart side of the camera. Also before people start bringing up "Left hand bigotry" I do not believe that current cameras are really that hard for left handers the way they are set up. In fact traditional beta and HD cameras could be argued to be more left hand "friendly" because you use your left hand for a lot more on the camera then your right. Now left eye dominant people they have a problem but thats a whole different thread.

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?
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When I am shooting production style with my AC and a sound guy I do not give much of a second thought about audio. I trust my sound guy and just ask him before we move on to the next shot if the sound was good. I find in production set up situations I have way to much on my mind with lighting, camera movement and actors to worry about sound. A sound profesional would be a much better resource to answer this question.


BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..
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This sounds like it will work great.

I hope this input helps.
 
It's always nice to have hard switches/dials for audio levels. On a narrative production, when there is a sound mixer on site it's always distracting and disconcerting to have to move away from the camera so that they can get into the menu to adjust settings. I always worry (uselessly) that they might mess up one of my settings. However, if there's a dedicated area of tactile sound controls, it seems easier for everyone.

It's even more important for an ENG setup.

As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.

As for number of channels, in both situations it's nice to have one level control for each input (so, that'd be four), but of course it'd be nice if this camera solved world hunger too.
 
Indie Rentals said:
As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.
.
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Why the dumb side? Wouldn't the camera op require easy access for ENG shoulder mounted run-&-gun type stuff? There seems to be room on the left SMART SIDE of the camera - just in front of the data port / flash unit.
 
Indie Rentals said:
As for placement, I think the back is OK (especially for narrative) but for ENG, I think the dumb side would be nice.
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Hi sorry but I edited my thinking above and think that the smart side is where audio adjustment knobs need to be. I realized that the shooters shoulder and right hand are used for balacing the camera and that I use my left hand to make adjustments so the audio "pots" or knobs need to be on the smart side as it would be very tough to reach the dummy side or back with your left hand.
 
I agree - ENG / EFP style would require smart side adjustment so you can get to it without having to take your eye off the viewfinder-

2 channels max - if you're riding more than 2 then you need a sound guy with a mixer-
 
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