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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

detachable back plate for buttons, similar to a car stereo's detachable face?

AppliedVisual said:
Most users are going to find the controls to be just fine right where they are.
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No I do not believe they are. Don't you think that if it was a good idea they would be on another camera at the back. It has become an industry standard because it works best. Profesionals in this industry try lots of different things and are creative but there are some things that are best to keep an industry standard and information and contol access in view and accessable to the focus puller is one of them.
 
Finner said:
I have to disagree 100%. I worked as a focus puller for 7 years on various movies (Unforgiven, Legends of the fall and many other features) I would have never ever wanted the info and controls or have I ever worked with experienced focus puller profesionals that would want the controls and info on any side but the "Smart side". The camera smart side was given that nickname because it is where all the controls and info need to be. Now as a cameraman I do not want my focus puller not to be able to see the info right in front of them. The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.
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Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?
 
Appleton said:
Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?
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Sure I can give you one but I have many more if you want. On the movie "The Edge" there was a large set up in the scene where the plane that Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin were in crashing into a mountain lake. I was hanging off the side of China-mans peak as the focus puller with the operator above the Canmore resevoir. At the last second the DOP called us on the radio to change from a 45 degree shutter to a 180 and do a slow motion shot instead so I had to change the camera to a different frame rate as well. If the info and buttons were on the back we would of had to of been pulled back up to the top of the peak by the SPFX riggers and change settings then get lowered back again. All this would have taken at least a half hour. But because the controls were where they should be it took about 30 seconds with the arri 435.

This is one of many examples I could give you. Things change fast and furious on set and functionality is key. A focus puller can do there job much better with the info and controls on the smart side.
 
Finner said:
Things change fast and furious on set and functionality is key.
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Thanks for the ex.

Spikes field tests may reveal the same idea. Perhaps a basic & small LCD on the left side with basic access ?
 
Appleton said:
Can you give some examples where you needed the shutter, fps, footage counter info. pulling focus during a shot ?
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One more thing. Below is one of the procedures a qualified focus puller does before calling speed on camera when asked to roll camera.

When roll camera is called a good focus puller will move from the lens back to the info screen. They will first check the focus on the lens then the T-stop to make sure exposure is set right and then hit the roll button and take a quick glance at the info screen to confirm that the FPS and Shutter is set properly. Then they will call speed on camera. This results in very few mistakes.

So to answer your question from above a focus puller needs this info every single time they roll.
 
Appleton said:
.

Spikes field tests may reveal the same idea. Perhaps a basic & small LCD on the left side with basic access ?
Click to expand...

I sure hope so. your idea of a small info LCD and a few basic controls would be perfect.
 
Finner said:
The info and buttons are actually easier for the focus puller to reach on the side then in the back when the camera op stays on the camera.
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Not if they are on the operator's side and blocked when he/she has their eye on the VF which is the case for most HD cameras without some sort of eyepiece extender and leveler. This scheme has been inherited from an ENG style of operation where you are doing you own settings in the field.

I agree about the concept of the "smart side" but one side seems to be reserved for ports right now. I think the 1st AC may have to become comfortable pulling on the opposite side of the camera with this little red camera.

This whole debate may be rendered mute when they demonstrate camera settings being modified via a wifi input on a PDA or a wired remote, etc.
 
lordnumberzero said:
Not if they are on the operator's side and blocked when he/she has their eye on the VF which is the case for most HD cameras. This scheme has been inherited from an ENG style of operation where you are doing you own settings in the field.
.
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It was not inherited from ENG style cameras. Film cameras way before video was even invented have this feature. Sure on the really old film cameras the information is just a simple footage counter or even possibly a fps control but it is always on the camera smart side. As far as operators being in the way of the info screen when their eye is on the VF, from the cameras (ARRI, AATON, Movie Cam, Panavision etc.) I have worked with that is not the case. The info screen is always viewable. Even the new generation of HD sony and the Panavision Genesis have made the info screen able to be seen by the AC when the Op is in place, so it is visable.

Now quite often if the operator will be in the way of the buttons but a focus puller will usually find time when the camera man does not have his eye to the eyepiece to make changes and if not the AC can just ask the OP to lean back for a second. In some situations with the buttons being in the back a change would almost be impossible. For example when strapped in to a seat on a large crane with an operator the AC can just ask the OP to lean back but if the info is on the back it will be very difficult or maybe even impossible for the AC to make changes. Now you may say the AC can just step off the crane and walk around the OP to the back of the camera. This is not possible because the crane is weighted for the camera the AC and the OP.

Trust me on this there is problem after problem with this camera if the info and buttons are not on the smart side. If red just wants to build a camera that can really compete against other high quality feature level cameras they should have an info screen and some menu access buttons on the camera smart side.
 
Feedback

Feedback

In this application our compact HD-LCD monitor will offer a lot of the data requested - fps, shutter and lens data as reported by the follow focus system.

It provides options for graphics such as frame guides, histogram (exposure) and focus . It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.

On the "smart side" are a RECORD button and two User Keys, which can be used for on-the-fly value adjustments or as camera mode change triggers.

There is an SD Card slot in this general location compatible with 802.11 (or other standard) wireless transceivers to interface with an external controller.
 
This sounds like it should work great Stuart. Its great to see you are so dedicated to your customers. In a production shooting situation an evf for the Op and a LCD for the AC will be a great combination.

Just a few more questions:

Are you thinking of some kind of button lock so there is no chance of bumping the buttons after they are set?

Are the audio controls going to be turn knobs that are readily accessible for the operator to change quickly if needed (Inf small crew efp/eng situations)?

Thanks

PS- Stuart please disregard the PM. I sent it before I saw your post.
 
I am very proud to have guys like Peter and Mike with a huge experience about cameras and lenses here in Vienna. Looking forward to meet them soon/February for a chat about the RED ONE.
 
Finner said:
Its great to hear that you are open to possibly changing things with the buttons and display.

I feel very strongly that control of shutter, fps, acquisition format, and a read out screen of this information needs to be on the camera view finder side (smart side). So the 1st AC can quickly change and see this info at a glance. If it is not there you will have a lot of 1st AC's refusing to pull focus with this camera. If fps or shutter or aquisition is wrong then the 1st AC gets blamed so many will not want to go near this camera for that reason alone. Also when these mistakes are made on a shoot with a red camera (I say when because with this info not infront of an AC it will happen) you will have unhappy DOP's that will not see the advantages of the red but rather the high chance of mistakes to be made with that info on the back. The info and buttons on the back will hinder red being choosen for shoots. The buttons also need some form of a lock so they can not be accidentally bumped after being set.

One more thing the audio controls need to be accessable and functional while shooting and not in some seperate menu.

I am not bashing the red here, I have ordered one and think it is a good camera. Just feel there are some important things being over looked. If the info is left on the back red will lose some bussiness and if the next generation comes out with this info and controls on the smart side myself and I am sure many others will not be able to get rid of the camera with info on the back fast enough to buy one with it on the side.

I hope people don't bash me on this I am very excited about the camera its just unfortunate because controls and a info screen on the back is a major functional error.
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Mike, I am totally agree with your opinion. When I saw the first time the RED renderings my immediate complaint was the "status display" on a back side. I think you would not be able to watch the "status display" sometimes properly especially in a different set or handheld situations because you have attached the RED drives or battery set in the front of the "status display" to balance the camera. You could put the drives and batteries on top but still you have to turn and move back your head that is somehow disturbing during shooting when you try fixing your head movement to catch with your eye EVF all the time. That was my idea about Head Video Eyewear with the possibilities to turn glasses starting from 0° - 90° to 180° up and down. So you do not need to fix your eye to catch EVF. It is something with a better/higher resolution and easy to focus and is on your head already attached. If the "status display" is on a "smart side" than you turn glasses up and also turn your head a bit on the right and see what is going on there on the "status display". Easy to use, easy to shoot, EASY TO SHOOT 4K that's all we want from the RED ONE.

redone_25.jpg
 
LCD's

LCD's

Just to clarify, the LCD on the back of the camera does not have video on it, its a high contrast status display - for current timecode, fps, shutter, ISO etc.

The other LCD being discussed is an attach where you want HD-LCD with HD video, framing guides, audio levels ... plus all the above same data superimposed.

As of course does the Viewfinder.
 
Audio

Audio

"Are the audio controls going to be turn knobs that are readily accessible for the operator to change quickly if needed (Inf small crew efp/eng situations)?"

Finner - can you elaborate on that question for me please ?
 
Clayton above me here worded my question much better then I did.

I will give an example. If I am driving down the road and see a bunch of wild animals I would like to shoot I would want to be able to grab the camera and start shooting right away. Just grab my frame and be able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs (I assume there will be an audio channel peaking display in the veiw finder and external LCD picture display screen). If the audio controls are in the menu system It will be next to impossible to adjust audio levels in on the fly shooting situations.

I sure hope this is clear, I find it difficult sometimes to convey my thoughts through a keyboard.
 
The Third Man said:
Mike, I am totally agree with your opinion. When I saw the first time the RED renderings my immediate complaint was the "status display" on a back side. I think you would not be able to watch the "status display" sometimes properly especially in a different set or handheld situations because you have attached the RED drives or battery set in the front of the "status display" to balance the camera. You could put the drives and batteries on top but still you have to turn and move back your head that is somehow disturbing during shooting when you try fixing your head movement to catch with your eye EVF all the time. That was my idea about Head Video Eyewear with the possibilities to turn glasses starting from 0° - 90° to 180° up and down. So you do not need to fix your eye to catch EVF. It is something with a better/higher resolution and easy to focus and is on your head already attached. If the "status display" is on a "smart side" than you turn glasses up and also turn your head a bit on the right and see what is going on there on the "status display". Easy to use, easy to shoot, EASY TO SHOOT 4K that's all we want from the RED ONE.
Click to expand...

redone_25_web.jpg


The picture shows a possible new "status display" position that is easy for a shooter to see and control during a work. A shooter just have to move head and eye a bit on the right side especially in a handheld situation (on the fly) when he/she moves with the camera because does not need to turn and move whole head back to see what is written at the "status display" like it would be with the old position. I think it is very important part of the camera design and usability. But only if it's possible to turn and place it on the left side. If not we should take it like it is now.
 
Stuart English said:
In this application our compact HD-LCD monitor will offer a lot of the data requested - fps, shutter and lens data as reported by the follow focus system.

It provides options for graphics such as frame guides, histogram (exposure) and focus . It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.

On the "smart side" are a RECORD button and two User Keys, which can be used for on-the-fly value adjustments or as camera mode change triggers.

There is an SD Card slot in this general location compatible with 802.11 (or other standard) wireless transceivers to interface with an external controller.
Click to expand...

Sanjin

I think the answer Stuart gives here will work great for almost all situations. It is a very good solution.

Now I just look forward to hearing the answer on the audio because if it is located in a menu that will be a problem.
 
Audio

Audio

Before I can answer that question, we need to get some clarifiction of the meaning of : being "able to quickly adjust the audio while shooting by turning dedicated phisical audio adjustment knobs"

For example, how many channels of audio are you expecting to adjust. From what location on the camera? What monitoring options are you expecting?
 
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