Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Pro Primes 2.0 (Battle-Tested)

Will Keir said:
This is the END of the RPPs.

The Dragon will hamstring the lenses, they simply don't have the coverage for power users and rentals.
Click to expand...

Then I guess this is the END of nearly every other cinema style lens on the market. I'd better go sell all my glass ASAP!!!! Dragon is a non-standard size when shot at its full sensor area. A great many S35 lenses will still cover or come very close when considering focal lengths of 40mm or so or longer. Lenses like the insanely popular and commonly used Angenieux Optimo series are not going to cover, but I don't see anyone willing to let me pry them out of their hands for any discounted price. Angie even produced modified versions of their popular 24X and 12X zooms to accommodate the larger digital sensor sizes by integrating a teleconverter and shifting the apparent focal lengths. Those modded lenses still won't cover Dragon. The 45-120 looks like it will vignette slightly at 45. There's still a waiting list a mile long to get one... Lots of beloved optics out there in the world don't fully cover S35 or 5K on the MX sensor, yet people use them day in and day out. I don't see Dragon changing that. Super Speeds, Zeiss standards, Angie zooms, Cooke S3's, Cooke S4's, even the new S5's and mini-S4's (/i Pancros)...


Will Keir said:
Well that's not entirely true. There was one HUGE price droop at the end of last year when the Price of Epics were slashed in half...
Click to expand...

Not slashed in half. I know people who keep saying that, but it's simply not true. And that is the price adjustment I was referring to when I said late last year. Let us not forget that the price also went up and people complained about that too. Just not as loudly since most customers at that time were already grandfathered into one of the RED One upgrade stage programs and prices were set or they had already paid for an EPIC-M or early X and just saw their investment increase in value. There were other elements to factor in as well such as those who bought during the 8 month period where EPIC was priced higher than on its release, but it included the free Dragon upgrade. These are highly technical machines made from components built on a volatile market.

How come no one bitches about the Alexa body seeing an 18% price reduction since it was released?
The price adjustments, both up and then down, were not random. I think a bunch of us saw them coming, we just couldn't predict exactly when it would happen.

I can totally understand and acknowledge the anger some owners felt but as a whole I believe the move was in line with the founding principals I believe to be REDs.
Click to expand...

Then we are in total agreement.

Your investment is in yourself, make your movie.
Click to expand...

So true.

Those with a "stock market" mentality got upset, that they saw the RED cameras as a finical investment instead of a creative one.
Click to expand...

And that is *ALWAYS* the case whenever we are dealing with high-tech equipment. Sure, these are cameras, but they are also computers too. Anyone who bought into this thinking that a computer, that you can strap a lens to, is going to hold it's original sale value for more than a couple years is seriously delusional. As I said above, the EPIC has held it's value better than *ANY* digital camera system I've ever owned. In fact, better than any digital system I'm aware of with the exception of possibly the LEICA M9 due to it's mythical over-hyped status and collect ability. Used RED One bodies are still selling around the $4K mark and actually have better marketability and resale value than a Sony F35. There's something to think about. The camera, whether it was made by RED or anyone else, is just a tool. Who buys tools and banks on them to hold their value? In the history of film production, the only two things I know of that retain most of their value until the totally break are lenses and c-stands.
 
Last edited:
"Your investment is in yourself, make your movie."

You can make a movie with rented gear. The same exact movie. The question is not whether to shoot a movie (or whatever) it is whether it might be smart to wait, not buy anything, rent what is needed - because depreciation might mean a loss over what rental would have cost over the actual days of shooting. Run and gun shoots with no/few lights (ENG) require few days of preparation (sometimes zero) but the kinds of things we do (that many people do) are a lot of days of meetings, discussion and plans and very few on-set days. So to beat the depreciation clock, maybe you need to be a form of rental house on the side. That's actually distracting you from "making your movie" with a side-job that is not directly creative.

No one hires me because of what I own - it's my reel and my personality which get me the gig - I could own $0 and do the exact same work by renting. Lots of top DPs do that - they own nothing at all and shoot $50 million movies.

Besides, you can't "make a movie" with just a camera - you need a script, locations, actors (if it's fiction) etc. etc. even if you are choosing to shoot in the most dismal docu-drama style. I'd even say if you want any hope of actually distributing your movie, you need name stars attached, at least B-level ones. If you have $$ for all those other things, the cost of renting a cam is nothing much at all.

Most of my real investment in myself is knowledge, reading, talking to people who know a lot, taking workshops, set experience, etc. What gear I choose to own or not vs renting that same gear for the same jobs/personal projects is only a business decision, because it has no effect at all on the quality of my work - how could it? A rented camera of the same model is the same exact thing.

If you say Reds' philosophy is to put equipment investors out of business by pummeling prices - then that would mean buying their gear is a very poor investment unless you were one of the few people who took the Red One>Epic upgrade back in the day. Would you buy a house in a neighborhood where the developers randomly slashed prices - "to allow more people to have the chance to move in"?

I've said this before - and all this should be obvious. Shooting is a craft, and at its best an art. Buying/selling gear vs renting is just a business, plain and simple, because whether you rent it or buy it it's the same gear that will give you the exact same shots, the exact same chance to show off your talent in whatever productions.

Its' always worth buying what you need and cannot rent in your area - we have many light modifiers that fit that bill, as well as home-brew moco and other stuff, and I wish I could get my hands on certain rare funky lenses. Great. Buy that as much as you can afford. Your computers for post - you might use those for moths on end so obviously renting would be a waste of money and it costs less to buy. Same thing. Steadicams - even if you could rent one (rental Steadi's are very rare) it would cost you a fortune to rent it for all the days you need to practice and train.

But popular cameras? Think long and hard. Its' simple math: how many days will you shoot over the next 6 months vs how much value will the camera loose vs. how much would it cost to rent the same kit for that number of days from someone else. Sometimes you can guess way wrong. Be careful. Be realistic. Most ad and music videos director/DPs shoot maybe 2 days a month, if they're busy.

As Jeff pointed out - yes, cameras loose value, but slashing prices deliberately on the manufacturer side makes me loose faith and trust in that company. I start to think "I'll just wait and rent in the meantime." Technically, an F35 was 200K until they stopped offering it. You couldn't get a brand new F35 at any time for 12K. Ebay is not the same as an official price in terms of perceived value.

Anyway, for the final time, it's just business to rent instead. It has nothing to do with talent or art or final results and is not really your client's problem one way or another - they just care about what you give them - how you get there (buying or renting) - they have no logical reason to care as long as the price they pay off your delivered product is the same.
 
Last edited:
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Lots of beloved optics out there in the world don't fully cover S35 or 5K on the MX sensor...
Click to expand...

funny you say that...I've been shooting with my beloved 17-55 F2.8 DX lens on a full frame Nikon FX camera body for 3 years....the lens was unusable anywhere wider than 30mm really but I still used it on 98% of all my stills work and shot some of my favorite pictures that way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top