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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Module request: Live 4K output

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Mitch Gross

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but now that there are a number of options for 4K monitoring (and a lot of options for QuadHD monitoring), I'm wondering about the possibility of a live 4K monitoring output. Obviously this would have to be a module with some considerable horsepower, but since we've seen that full res. deBayer can now be done faster than real time, it should be possible to execute such an item. It would be great to be able to have a REDLOG output over it, as well as options for REC709, DCI P3 and whatever 3D LUTS one may wish to apply. It would be an impressive way to show the clients exactly what they could be getting out of the camera, even while maintaining the RAW capture. It would also be another way for RED to stay a little step ahead of other manufacturers, who can output a 4K monitoring signal but there are some hoops to jump through, especially if one wishes to LUT the image.

Any thoughts? I know I'm being asked about 4K monitoring more and more.
 
+1 Not sure how much this helps the production crew, but I was just messing with my epic with a bunch of CEO's and they really enjoyed playing with the camera. Most exec's still aren't really allowed to touch the camera's even though they technically own everything, and it would have been real nice to throw the images up onto two 4k monitors that were in the room as they were playing with the camera. Getting that real time feed back when the exec's walk in I think really helps to allay fears, which in the long term allows the creatives to be more creative.
 
Well this is a fantastic idea.
 
For years Stuart English would jump on threads like these and ask just what 4K monitors we were planning to take on set. Since that was largely a rhetorical discussion until very recently, I'd imagine development of a live UHD or 4K output was down the priority list. In less than a years time, the lack of a live UHD or 4K output is a noticeable gap in the RED ecosystem. Typical disruptive technology "problems", if there is such a thing ;-)

IAC, a module that could send out UHD or 4K seems possible with RED's modular topology. Whether there is a business case in terms of market size, price tolerance and production cost would have to be determined. I'd love one, as would many RedUsers, I just don't know if we're talking 100's or 1,000's - methinks RED will want to "do the math" before committing - I would.

I suggested in another thread that RED should make a "RocketDeck" that had a RedMag reader, a RedRocket-X, a NUOC or MacMini within and lots of SDI/HDMI/DP/TB2/USB3 spigots in a 1RU black box. To extend its functionality I further suggested "RocketLink" which would be a fiber optic cable with a plug on each end designed to be inserted into the 1.8" "red style" SSD port that would carry the RAW data from the camera to the mag reader on the "RocketDeck". (Note: if you still wanted iso recording you would need both the side and rear SSD modules).

Using a tablet, laptop, LCD monitor & keyboard (or perhaps a smartphone) one could manage the treatment of the incoming signal to the "RocketDeck" via the RCX-Pro tool. Would also want to develop a variant (RCX-Live) that could support live "shading", genlock, etc for live switching similar to a traditional CCU interface between camera and board.

The "RocketDeck" concept provides a one box solution for a number of common tasks and would support an expanded set of use cases. At the very least its a portable device you could attach to your computer via TB2 or USB3 to download and transcode footage in real time or better. With some development effort, it could potentially turn Scarlets and Epics into legitimate live UHD/4K cameras - smells like more rentals to me.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I suggested in another thread that RED should make a "RocketDeck" that had a RedMag reader, a RedRocket-X, a NUOC or MacMini within and lots of SDI/HDMI/DP/TB2/USB3 spigots in a 1RU black box. To extend its functionality I further suggested "RocketLink" which would be a fiber optic cable with a plug on each end designed to be inserted into the 1.8" "red style" SSD port that would carry the RAW data from the camera to the mag reader on the "RocketDeck". (Note: if you still wanted iso recording you would need both the side and rear SSD modules).
Click to expand...

OK as far as it goes, but kludgey. If you're tethering the camera to that much hardware, what is the REDmag for anymore? It's redundant; take it out of the equation. You can fit a hell of a lot faster/bigger RAID into that 1U box than a REDmag. Just take the REDmag out of the equation altogether, tether the damn camera and record the raw output direct to the mini RAID in your mini DIT cart :-)

Mike
 
I've said it many times. A 4K live module for the DSMC lineup would be SIGNIFICANT.

The broadcast market DWARFS the cinema/TV market.

Why not make the EPIC a killer tool for broadcast via a live 4K module?

I have not been on a single recent fashion or commercial shoot where the clients would not have LOVED a 4K live monitor out. They ALL want it.

Even at $10,000 - a module with quad HD-SDI and HDMI out would be VERY popular given EPICs price-point.
 
Yup, this has come up before... IMO, it shouldn't even be a module, it should just be an ability within the camera. I keep hoping that the hardware is there with the Dragon upgrade and a firmware update will get us 4K/UHD output via HDMI.

I'd hope that if not able now, this can be a future upgrade to the brain rather than another piece to bolt on the back of the camera.

If we're going to have a dedicated module for it, it should give us HDMI 2.0 wit both UHD and full 4K DCI resolution support. As well as various SDI connections up to quad-3G. Maybe quad-HDMI as well.
 
I would absolutely welcome it and BUY IT as immediately as it would become available...

HOWEVER... Unless this was something offered within an existing Module in the works, such as the Meizler Module, or +1 type module, I would have to agree with Jeff here, and say that I would most definitely NOT wish to add a additional Module, to JUST have a 4k Output.
 
I think it's a lot to expect from RED that the ability to output 4K over HDMI is already possible within the camera. The standard for the new levels of HDMI to support this were not even in place when the EPIC went into production. It would be one hell of a good guess if they just so happened to be compliant in what they put in there.

Also, I wouldn't want to be limited to what is possible to send out over HDMI v. what could be done with either a dual-link 3G-SDI (like on the Phantom Flex4K), a quad-link HD-SDI (like on the F55) or even the funky new 6G-SDI created from whole cloth for the Blackmagic 4K camera. Why limit the EPIC here? It's not just about the pixels, but about the ability to color correct on the fly, pull mattes, pull extractions and pan & scan within for sports, etc. Like Mark said, there's a huge world of production out there that needs the signal immediately. RED doesn't necessarily need to produce entire ecosystems of gear like Sony does, but if they can just provide a 4K video output with a way to paint the signal then there are plenty of systems in place or available soon that the camera could plug right into. It's a huge market.

And having been on a few sets with an F55 with several 4K monitors giving live feeds plus a monster 85" Sony 4K monitor feeding the creatives in video village, I can tell you that once client gets a taste of that it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
 
4k Live TV

4k Live TV

What would be really awesome would be a 4k live output with live grading. With the new live 4k ATEM switchers from BMD, it would be nice to be able to mix 4k from Dragon... RED would probably need a optical connection from camera to mixer because of the length limitations of the "6g SDI" that BMD uses. RED could instantly have a extremely competitive live broadcast camera market if they also fully implemented full camera control and some basic shading/live grade features like a proper broadcast camera. What I'm thinking of is basically a module to bring a RED solution to properly replace the old triax class broadcast cameras.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I think it's a lot to expect from RED that the ability to output 4K over HDMI is already possible within the camera. The standard for the new levels of HDMI to support this were not even in place when the EPIC went into production. It would be one hell of a good guess if they just so happened to be compliant in what they put in there.

Also, I wouldn't want to be limited to what is possible to send out over HDMI v. what could be done with either a dual-link 3G-SDI (like on the Phantom Flex4K), a quad-link HD-SDI (like on the F55) or even the funky new 6G-SDI created from whole cloth for the Blackmagic 4K camera. Why limit the EPIC here? It's not just about the pixels, but about the ability to color correct on the fly, pull mattes, pull extractions and pan & scan within for sports, etc. Like Mark said, there's a huge world of production out there that needs the signal immediately. RED doesn't necessarily need to produce entire ecosystems of gear like Sony does, but if they can just provide a 4K video output with a way to paint the signal then there are plenty of systems in place or available soon that the camera could plug right into. It's a huge market.

And having been on a few sets with an F55 with several 4K monitors giving live feeds plus a monster 85" Sony 4K monitor feeding the creatives in video village, I can tell you that once client gets a taste of that it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
Click to expand...


And I am with you on this Mitch, fact is that after having tasted DRAGON there is a sudden HUNGER for resolution, from start to end, and it does indeed start right off 4k monitoring on set!!

I also do understand the difficulties, technologically wise, of having such a feature "IN CAMERA" and for this I said that a MODULE that would offer 4k video out, will be on my cart immediately, but I however would much prefer it if it was NOT a stand alone Module, but an inclusion of, in a Module that would ALSO offer 4k monitoring, and while I can't talk of what the NEW MEIZLER module might or might not be changed to, it would surely be FANTASTIC if it would "in it's new form" allow for 4k Monitoring.
 
Hope you're right Jeff. Perhaps part of the Dragon upgrade is a board that can drive UHD or 4K over the HDMI port on the brain.

I still think it will require a module, presumably one with several SDI-3G spigots. While set monitoring over HDMI is manageable; BNC connectors are significantly more robust, and, much more trustworthy for hardlined EFP multi-cam work even if you had to build out snakes. BlackMagic has gone to 6G-SDI to support single cable UHD/4K transport - which sounds good, until you find out there is no published spec or support outside of BM. Until I see some engineering data, I'm skeptical about cable lengths/real world signal integrity/etc.

Mike - I never intended to have any significant storage capacity within the "RocketDeck", had figured to add it via TB2 and/or USB3. I suppose turning SSD modules and 1.8" RedStations into receptacles is a kludge, but I'm attracted to the flexibility. I can go from recording to SSD mags to feeding signal over fiber, and back again, in a few seconds without doing any physical modifications to the camera. If I'm doing multi-cam, any RED cam can be put to work without some special module required. Call me kludge boy if you must, but I think its actually a more functional approach.

Cheers - #19
 
Seriously, the visual difference between a well-scaled 1080p signal and a "true" 4K signal is almost imperceptible unless your face is pressed against the screen. Better to get a 1080p monitor with good contrast to show off to clients and so on. Then better to spend your leftover money on more useful things like more lights, more crew, etc.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
Seriously, the visual difference between a well-scaled 1080p signal and a "true" 4K signal is almost imperceptible
Click to expand...

Robert, no offense intended - but I've seen plenty of 1080p scaled to 4K on several leading panels and plenty of "true" 4K - and if you find it "almost imperceptible" you should get your eyes checked.
 
You know Mitch, I would like to have it to record compressed 4K out when a client doesn't want/or have the budget for RAW. That option would allow me to just work with my Scarlet (soon Epic) and not get a F55.
 
I would LOVE to have 4K live output!
 
I don't think Red will be too keen on this as a lot of people will skip Red Mags and R3Ds and go direct to Odyssey recorders. I hope I'm wrong.
 
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