Your 4k Workflow Specs...

[Mardi_Gras]

Let's hear it folks, how do y'all intend to capture, edit and manage your 4k assets. All your specs - MAC and Windows users, let's hear it all...

 

[PaulClements]

Too unsure about this all at the moment. I've heard that the Quad Core's aren't even going to be built into Vista, I can imagine Mac will start using them sometime in the next year but it'll be at a fair old price. I can see the worth in future proofing a Mac by buying a quad as and when they arrive but if I were to go the PC way I'd probably just opt for the cheaper Duo Core option with at least 8Gb of memory and a couple of highend graphic cards. Would also like either 2 24" monitors or one 30", Apple would be my prefered choice but Dell et al seem to be 2/3rds price so it depends on the budget.

Frankly though it's a wait and see how much it all costs once the camera is here and how much of a budget remains after shelling out for the camera and accessories.

Looking forward to the minimum spec requirements from Graeme though, should give an indication as to the smallest budget needed for "Good Enuf" results.

 

[Martin Drew]

Too early to say. My intention is to use bare 250Gb drives to back up projects on though. I got a firewire/SATA enclosure on eBay for 14 GBP and 250Gb SATA drives cost about 40 GBP over here so it works out quite cheap unless you are doing a lot of volume, even allowing for dual backups (for safety). And it makes access to older projects very snappy.

Martin

 

[Jaime Vallés]

In production:

1) Capture at 4K REDCODE to the internal flash module.

2) Plug in a 1TB Firewire 800 Hard Drive to the camera and transfer the footage.

3) Verify that the transfer was ok and the data is not corrupted.

4) Plug in ANOTHER 1TB Firewire 800 Drive and transfer footage AGAIN, as a backup.

5) Verify the backup transfer.

6) Erase flash module footage and start over.

In post-production:

1) Bring in footage from master to REDCINE on a new Mac Pro, whatever is the most I can afford when I have to buy it (should be at least a 4 core, ideally 8 core with at least 4GB RAM, and at least 3TB of disk space for footage, not including the boot drive).

2) The RAW footage will be converted to 480p for an offline edit.

3) Edit footage in Final Cut Pro until it's almost perfect, but without fades, dissolves, FX, etc.

4) Using REDCINE, transfer the footage used in the final cut at 2K.

5) Color correct, make final fades and dissolves, etc. (maybe this is done at a post house that can do the whole online edit more easily).

6) Export as a 1080p file to HDCAM SR, HD DVD or Blu Ray.

 

[Mardi_Gras]

Jaime,

This looks preety straightforward. You must have it figured out already.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Yeah, the workflow is easy, as long as I don't need to deliver a 4K final film to someone. I have no idea how to do that. But seeing as 1080 was good enough for Superman, I think it'll be fine for the near future as a delivery medium. Most digital projectors in theaters today do 1080 or 2K. There's very few places that can show 4K in all its glory.

I don't know what digital projector they have at the Zigfeld theater here in NYC, but Mission: Impossible III looked spectacular projected digitally there, and I'm sure it wasn't 4K.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

Honestly I have no Idea on how I'm going to deliver the footage. But that has less to do with REDs format than with Brazilian market. I guess I'll have to bring HDs to the post house and pay for print Digibetas... Sad...

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

is 2k too much for an at home online session?
or will it pretty much have to be 1080 if u wanna do it yourself?

 

[Mardi_Gras]

is 2k too much for an at home online session?
or will it pretty much have to be 1080 if u wanna do it yourself?

Onlining 2k assets at home, like its bigger brother, 4k, don't come cheap. Even getting a good 1080p online at home is a big deal. You can easily run up thousands of $$$ before cutting a single frame of media. Sh*#@ don't come cheap! My best guess is that most non to average techies like me will be offlining @ 480 and exporting for a professional 1080p posting, just like Jaime outlined above

 

[Emanuel A.]

is 2k too much for an at home online session?
or will it pretty much have to be 1080 if u wanna do it yourself?

Onlining 2k assets at home, like its bigger brother, 4k, don't come cheap. Even getting a good 1080p online at home is a big deal. You can easily run up thousands of $$$ before cutting a single frame of media. Sh*#@ don't come cheap! My best guess is that most non to average techies like me will be offlining @ 480 and exporting for a professional 1080p posting, just like Jaime outlined above

$5,000 for 4K online editing is the David Newman's estimated figure:

«We just demonstrated real-time online 4K RAW editing (dual stream dissolve with Dalsa Origin footage) to Adobe management under Premiere Pro 2.0 running on a Dual core dual proc Xeon Woodcrest system (about $3K PC with two drives in RAID-0.) So it can be done today, although we aren't shipping this technology yet, but we intend this be available for Red customers as the alternative workflow (for those who can't stand offline workflows.) This a simple extension of the now shipping CineForm RAW workflow. So even with the purchase of our software the system costs will be doable at $5k for a Red online.»

LINK

FOR MORE INFO >> CLICK HERE

 

[Jim Arthurs]

In production:
2) The RAW footage will be converted to 480p for an offline edit.

Hi Jaime... I think you're greatly underestimating the power of your new system... why not do your "off-line" in DVCPRO 100 instead of 480?

A REDCINE on-line/DVCPRO 100 offline workflow would be doable, if not the fastest, on virtually any current system... and a few solutions considered "vintage" nowadays.

It would be much easier to judge focus on shots, and generally keep you in the high resolution world for the whole process. The watered down, resolution starved DVCPRO 100 codec seems to me to be the off-line format of choice for RED. No offense intended to current DVCPRO 100 users (myself included).

Regards,

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Maybe... But I have no problem editing in SD. For me it's mostly about getting the rhythm right, so I could be looking at an iPod-sized screen and still edit. Of course, editing on a 50" plasma at 1080p would be ideal, but I'd rather use up that money on taking the final offline cut to a small post house and having them do a full-out pro online cut and grading.

My biggest beef with offlining in HD is that I hate, hate, HATE my computer being bogged down while playing footage. I have a 3 year old Dual 2GHz G5 (Rev. A) with 1.5GB RAM, and a ton of storage space. I can't do DVX footage smoothly enough with this system (for my tastes). Dropped frames, huge loading times, slow everything, lots of renders. If a new Mac Pro can do SD flawlessly, I'll be much happier having a "snappy and super-fast" editing workstation doing 480p than a "merely acceptably slow and finnicky" HD workstation.

If, when the time comes, my new system can handle HD footage and still feel super-snappy and solid as a rock, then by all means I'll edit on HD. But I'll still probably be using my Sony 14" NTSC monitor for checking color... And if Walter Murch could cut "Cold Mountain" on SD, then I think I'll be ok.

 

[Jim Arthurs]

If a new Mac Pro can do SD flawlessly, I'll be much happier having a "snappy and super-fast" editing workstation doing 480p than a "merely acceptably slow and finnicky" HD workstation.

Jaime, to each his own, though I don't think you'd find any issues whatsoever using your proposed system high-end system with DVCPRO 100... and I'm not a Mac guy! I've seen the early model dual core Macbook Pro play two streams of 24fps 720p with EFX applied and 0 hiccups... I guess what I'm saying is that the current user experience with DVCPRO 100 is as smooth as SD...

Perhaps some other FCP users could step in and give their real world experiences with DVCPRO 100 on their Macs?

 

[Ace]

And if Walter Murch could cut "Cold Mountain" on SD, then I think I'll be ok.

Not only did he cut in SD, he cut without sound either (lipreads).

 

[Thomas Mathai]

$5,000 for 4K online editing is the David Newman's estimated figure:

«We just demonstrated real-time online 4K RAW editing (dual stream dissolve with Dalsa Origin footage) to Adobe management under Premiere Pro 2.0 running on a Dual core dual proc Xeon Woodcrest system (about $3K PC with two drives in RAID-0.) So it can be done today, although we aren't shipping this technology yet, but we intend this be available for Red customers as the alternative workflow (for those who can't stand offline workflows.) This a simple extension of the now shipping CineForm RAW workflow. So even with the purchase of our software the system costs will be doable at $5k for a Red online.»

LINK

FOR MORE INFO >> CLICK HERE

Real-time in vendor speak is so subjective. To me true real time is as you work, a final version is generated, instantly updating changes, etc.

A real-time 4k system for $5k isn't the same as a real-time 4k system that costs maybe $100k to $500k.

I would inquire what you are getting for your $5k. It's definitely a compressed 4k codec, which isn't really a deal for most users.

How many layers of real-time is it?
How are effects and transitions handled in real-time?
What are render times going to be like?
Will the system allow you to conform an uncompressed version if needed for color timing or output.

 

[David Newman]

1) How many layers of real-time is it?
2) How are effects and transitions handled in real-time?
3) What are render times going to be like?
4)Will the system allow you to conform an uncompressed version if needed for color timing or output.

1) Two 4K video streams of CineForm RAW can be played on a dual proc dual core Intel Woodcrest -- quad core may do better (note: our 3Ghz Woodcrest, was slightly out-performing a 2.4Ghz dual proc quad core.) With half res'ing wavelet tricks more real-time layers will be supported.
2) Color correction, transitions, titles, etc in RT. The basics are in realtime.
3) Around 1-2 frames per second on a Woodcrest Intel system -- this lowish render speed is due to the demosaic required to convert form RAW to RGB.
4) No real need. You source is compressed (whether REDCODE or CineForm RAW) and for post renders to CineForm Intermediate this can have as little compression as the user desires. If you wish to decompress to DPX then conform those, the quality is not visibly different even for extreme workflows.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
blog : cineform.blogspot.com
web : www.cineform.com

 

[Steve Gibby]

Not only did he cut in SD, he cut without sound either (lipreads).

And it was FCP 3 he used...

 

[Adrian Correia]

would a fully loaded Mac Book Pro be a viable editing workstation option?

 

[Thomas Mathai]

1) Two 4K video streams of CineForm RAW can be played on a dual proc dual core Intel Woodcrest -- quad core may do better (note: our 3Ghz Woodcrest, was slightly out-performing a 2.4Ghz dual proc quad core.) With half res'ing wavelet tricks more real-time layers will be supported.
2) Color correction, transitions, titles, etc in RT. The basics are in realtime.
3) Around 1-2 frames per second on a Woodcrest Intel system -- this lowish render speed is due to the demosaic required to convert form RAW to RGB.
4) No real need. You source is compressed (whether REDCODE or CineForm RAW) and for post renders to CineForm Intermediate this can have as little compression as the user desires. If you wish to decompress to DPX then conform those, the quality is not visibly different even for extreme worflows.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
blog : cineform.blogspot.com
web : www.cineform.com

well I figure even at 1 second a frame, it would take 36 hours to render a 90 minute movie. I'm sure the experienced editors will break the film up into reels. So say 5 reels, each about @ 18 minutes would take 7.2 hours to render.

Anyway to have this split up over a small render farm?

My experience so far with DI software, has been with uncompressed image sequences like DPX. I don't know if any of them handles compressed movie files.

For filmout, same thing. I think only Lasergraphics has has quicktime support. Most of the time, movie files are converted to image sequences.

So it would nice to have the ability to render out mutiple versions, final edit with an uncompressed version for DI use.

 

[David Newman]

For filmout, same thing. I think only Lasergraphics has has quicktime support. Most of the time, movie files are converted to image sequences.

So it would nice to have the ability to render out mutiple versions, final edit with an uncompressed version for DI use.

Yes, Lasergraphics supports Quicktime, I know this as they're currently doing some 4K filmout tests using CineForm Intermediate compressed MOV files. Even so the export options are unlimited, DPX/Cineon, TIFF, TGA, MOV, AVI of many different codecs. Accelerating exports is certainly doable, although even at well under 7 hours a reel, that is fast for a 4K export (2K is much faster.) 4K uncompressed DPX has unanother issue more significant than rendering time, that 90 minute feature will require 9.2 Terabytes to store (1.9TB per reel.) So compression is a good thing, at 4K filmout quality compression would only use around 200GB per reel, now you can deliver your masters on a single firewire drive (one reel at a time.) At 2K or 1080p, compression makes it very easy to move data around, the whole filmout master for our first feature (Dust to Glory -- LaserPacific did the filmout) fits in under 200GB.