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Red One or BMCC

Linda Barzini

Linda Barzini

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What is the difference between a Red One and the Black Magic 4k? How do the codecs compare as far as sharpness, saturation, and level of detail for post-production color grading?

I eventually want a Scarlet with Zeiss CP.2 or Schneider Xenon FF glass, but that's not going to happen for sometime, so what do I do in the meantime? I am thinking of a "disposable" used BMCC 2.5k and set of Rokinons = $3000 and call it film school as I still have much to learn. I have plenty of Canon glass from my 7d and 5dII, but I really want to work with cinema cameras and lenses.

I am kicking myself that I didn't jump at buying one of those half-priced Scarlets a few years ago. BTW, the battle-tested part of Red.com is a little thin. Us Independents could really used some refurbished or lightly used gear.
 
Har to tell as the 4k BMCCis not out yet... ;)

But posting a R1 is not hard.
And just became a lot easier with the GPU accelerated RCX. Once that drifts to the SDK, life should be a lot easier.

G
 
I had the displeasure of working with the 2k bmcc on a short.

- extreme ir pollution in daylight
- dull colors that require an unofficial user made lut to look somewhat decent
- needs a ton of light to produce a decent image, and it is advised to overexpose for best image quality, thus sacrificing dynamic range
- back screen only usable for menus, terrible and completely unusable for image feedback
- you cannot trust the vectorscope to expose properly (vectorscope/histogram is the one and go to tool for proper exposure) but you have to actually watch out for zebras to expose properly (very bad workflow imo) see here: http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11361
- the raw files from my experience have a lot less room to recover information and color grade and degrade in quality when edited fast
- the bmcc 4k has LESS dynamic range than the 2k version (and the 2k version dr claim is exaggerated to begin with imo)
- every single camera was delayed and had either hardware or software issues, most recent one on the bmcc pocket has just been resolved with firmware

I would stay away from any bmcc as of now.

see my vimeo channel for what I shot with the bmcc and wihat I did with the mx.

I only worked with it once so I am not an expert of that camera but from that single experience I would not recommend it.
 
Did you check the reduser marketplace for a used Scarlet?

Just also put up a post that you're looking for one and see what happens.

If you buy a BMCC and really want a Scarlet think abou that you also need to buy some support stuff twice
And don't forget that you will also need all that in your funds.
I still rent quite some of my support gear for certain gigs because I didn't want to spend my money on cheap stuff just to "have something". But you can get pretty far with a basic kit already.

If you have canon lenses and get a basic scarlet kit with EF mount you're good to go.
I know he's a master at what he does but if you look at what mark toia pulls of equipped with EF lenses "and a stick" (because it enables him to work "light and fast" as he says) I'd say that's a decent place to get started for anybody.

As for a R1 that would practically eliminate the EF possibility. And the Scarlet/Epic are so easy to use from a DSLR point of view you'll be in for a surprise at how fast you can adapt.
 
To me the deal killer with the original BMC camera is the aliasing and moire issues. Will the new 4k camera have the same issues? Who knows but is so it's a huge problem IMO. It's a total deal breaker for me.

You really can't go wrong with a used RED IMHO. You likely will never see a big budget film shot with the original BMC. To me the low budget no brainer right now is a used RED One MX.

Just my opinion.
 
I would go for the BMC. It's much smaller and lighter and image quality is about equal to the R1. It's got a global shutter vs red's rolling shutter.
The Red One is discontinued and will only give you a 90 warrenty period if you opt for the 750$ ownership transfer. Repairing Reds is expensive bussiness.
 
As incredible as the Red One is, I wouldn't recommend getting into legacy technology at this point. If you want a camera to use as your "film school", go with the BM4k. It's going to cost you a lot less overall, be much easier to deal with in post and it's small and light enough to throw on a MōVI or BeSteady4 or one of the many other gimbals coming out. The Red One is bulky and heavy (legacy) and hard to maneuver. The one big plus the Red One has is RAW. RAW is a very powerful tool to have in your arsenal, but most things I've seen shot on RED don't even harness its true potential anyway, so that's something that could probably wait for you. If you are a MAC and FCPX user, and your funds are limited, and you want a great cinema camera that is created to work with MAC and FCPX, then you may want to take a hard look at the BM4k. The thing to remember is this: 99.99% of people who see your final product will have no clue, nor will they even give a sh*t, what camera you shot it on. Get the camera that's right for your needs. Are you going to be shooting self-funded projects? If so, you want the most bang for the buck. Are you shooting paid gigs? Probably not if you still have so much to learn. Good luck to you!

Edit: I guess the BM4k camera offers RAW too so that should make your choice even easier. If they ever release the damn thing.
 
valid points were made about what you will use the camera for.

If it is solely for film school and not a professional tool, then don't even bother buying the bmcc nor the mx.

You already own the 5d mark II and plenty of canon glass?

Download magic lantern with raw recording and you have all you need to learn.

- camera to frame, expose, light
- raw recording, files to do raw post production on
- what would you need 4k for for film school? you don't.
- money left for lighting equipment and computer hardware to edit raw files properly

and save your money to buy a real professional tool later on (unlike the bmcc)
 
Karim_Nassar said:
valid points were made about what you will use the camera for.

If it is solely for film school and not a professional tool, then don't even bother buying the bmcc nor the mx.

You already own the 5d mark II and plenty of canon glass?

Download magic lantern with raw recording and you have all you need to learn.

- camera to frame, expose, light
- raw recording, files to do raw post production on
- what would you need 4k for for film school? you don't.
- money left for lighting equipment and computer hardware to edit raw files properly

and save your money to buy a real professional tool later on (unlike the bmcc)
Click to expand...

Another good option. It's all about your budget.
 
Another thought if money it too tight for the RED eco system. There's an F3 with the S log upgrade for sale on here with the log upgrade for 6K. If I couldn't have afforded my Scarlet, that would be a pretty great buy I think.
 
Good points. Maybe I'll check some prices on used Scarlets and Red Ones.
 
My opinion is that both cameras offer advantages in certain areas. So it all depends on what you want to focus on. If you are interested in learning a proper workflow and image exposition that is used nowadays in a "pro" set, then the Red One is a great choice because it's size and it's way of operation will force you to think about how to move and use the equipment in a professional manner. A great skill to have is to make a video feel effortless despite the cumbersome tools involved in it's making. I also think the Red One has the potential to give you a better education in lighting techniques, since it doesn't automatically produce preset "pretty" pictures.

On the other hand, if what you want to concentrate more on is sequence montage and shot composition (more directorial), then the small size of the BMCC is great because it will get less in the way. But it will still deliver a 4K image that will be good enough for most purposes. Another great idea seems to be the new digital Bolex that will be released soon (after much development). That camera seems to be completely geared toward easy improv shooting.
 
Having just worked on something with the BMCC 2.5K as a B cam last week (I'm assuming the 4K version is similar).

There are some real issues with this camera whilst not "deal breakers"you should consider ......1) the built in touch screen is useless outdoors so you need to budget for a EVF 2) Internal battery is appalling so you will need to budget for v mounts or similar. 3) because of the need for external battery you will need something to mount it on 3) DNG file transfer & quicktime proxy generation is sloooow 4) There is something "going on" using exposure assist so we avoided using it .

Having said that Redone is a BIG camera with plenty of BIG needs & weights a lot, so you will need adequate support ( more expensive) . It is not a camera for running & gunning, unless you work out regularly eat lots of red meat & carbs or are a steadicam opp ; )

My vote a 2nd hand Scarlet....seems to be plenty of low hour ones being sold as owners try to offload who can't or will not upgrade to Dragon.
 
Having seen footage from the BMCC and being impressed by it, I got my hands on some footage for grading finally and was, well, appalled by it this time. This must be one the cameras with a bad sensor, BMD having had lots of QC issues, but the quality of the footage was less than stellar. The RED ONE, regardless of cost and what not, is still the much better camera, and I figure even better than the BMD 4K camera which is known to have a sensor not as sensitive as the 2.5K camera. Yes, the R1 is big and heavy and requires a few things to make it work, again, a working package for under $10K is quite within reach, and the results will always be way ahead of the BMCC. No argument. If what you need is a small package and don't want to spend money on accessories, then way for the Sony Z100 4K handycam to be released, should sell for under $6K with everything you need to shoot and I can wager it will look better than the BMCC...but neither will match a RED ONE properly exposed and shot.
 
Both the RED ONE versions can work as stellar cameras.
Worked with one last week.
Unbelieveable that this camera is allmost 6 years old by now...

It is still "up there"

G
 
Please never use the BMCC 2.5k!!!! The image is pure crap with moire and aliasing all over the images! You should only be shooting on a REAL cinema camera!!!

(All sarcasm aside) - The BMCC 2.5K MFT Mount is simply awesome for the price and what it is capable of in the right hands. It is definitely short on overall features and has its limitations and pitfalls like every other camera system in the world... But in the end, this little sensor in a box can create some stellar images! Please don't let anyone fool you otherwise!!!

AJ
 
just thought of an important aspect after hurting my back yesterday.

The red one is heavy. Really. And you need tripod heads and rig equipment that can handle that weight so it becomes even heavier when rigged.

That's a very important aspect which makes me advise you not to go for a red one.

If you will mostly be by yourself doing your own film school, you will be very happy to have something lighter and smaller than the mx.
 
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