How to mess up skintones

[Manfred Baulig]

I just got some files from a director who was angry and scared to death, cause of the Files she got from her DOP.
Scarlet was set to REDcolor and REDgamma plus a curve.

If more so called DOPs do stuff like this it's no wonder, that people keep saying the skin tones are bad on Reds.

Regards

 

[Bob Gundu]

Her DOP was a DOPE. But seriously, shooting with RC3 and RG3, is a pretty good way to deliver your footage without having non RED people freak out.

 

[Matt Dufilho]

I've got my first RED shoot coming up later this month. Where do you guys like to set your color and gamma settings on set?

 

[mikeburton]

No offense but IMO both those grades are terrible. The fact that a lot of projects shot on RED don't get proper color grades from a dedicated colorist are the primary reason RED gets a bad wrap for skintones. RAW is great for those who know how to use it to its advantage and a curse for those that dont. Although crappy DOP's don't help either but when you democratize the tools what do you expect? The DOP was probably hired strictly because he owned a Scarlet and probably sold himself and the package at a rediculous rate which is a fantastic combination for potential failure.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I've got my first RED shoot coming up later this month. Where do you guys like to set your color and gamma settings on set?

Personally I leave them at standard Redcolor3, Redgamma3. It's RAW so I capture it properly and adjust further in post. Keep it within the goal posts and without clipping or crushing (Unless you wan't to crush and leave it crushed in post) and all the information is there to take it any way you want. Make sure though to light and expose for the look you want, otherwise nothing you do in post can fix that...

 

[Matthew Scott]

If more so called DOPs do stuff like this it's no wonder, that people keep saying the skin tones are bad on Reds.

Throwing around statements like that is a little careless wouldn't you think? Just because a director has no idea about post, gamma curves and RAW, doesn't mean you get to shoot down a DOP whom I'm guessing you've never met, nor spoken with about the given shot. No wonder people keep saying Reduser.net is hit and miss. IMHO, skin tones look bad in both of those frame grabs, but since it's RAW, it doesn't matter anyway...right?

 

[Matt Dufilho]

Much appreciated, Matt. I had assumed that, but you know how assuming goes.

Where do you like to park your ISO?

 

[Matthew Scott]

Much appreciated, Matt. I had assumed that, but you know how assuming goes.

Where do you like to park your ISO?

I'm always working to 800 iso...and it's working well, cheers

 

[Matt Ryan]

I'm always working to 800 iso...and it's working well, cheers

I agree, I'm at 800ISO most of the time except low light tungsten situations (or green screen) where I want NO noise at all and drop to 500ISO or 320ISO to open up exposure a bit. In that situation just watch your highlights because they will clip faster going below 800ISO. But in most situations I'm typically at 800ISO.

 

[Matt Dufilho]

Thanks, guys. I'm still trying to get the DSLR/RGB ISO mentality out of my head.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[jake blackstone]

Here is what I don't understand.
The proliferation of Resolve Lite made it pretty much the weapon of choice for an overwhelming number of users wanting to grade their own material. From that group of people the majority of those users are pretty much way over their head. Although trying to save some money by "do it yourselves" crowd is perfectly understandable, the result pretty much almost always is pretty underwhelming. So, why not try to be a bit smarter? Why not use your Resolve Lite for conforming, save the project and then just hire a professional colorist for an hour or two to open your project and let him set the main looks. You then can go home and copy and paste the rest. Is it a perfect solution? Of coarse not. But is it better, than what is done now by inexperienced "do it yourselves" users? I would think so...

 

[Matthew Scott]

Imagine RED had the same sentiment.

 

[Hurcan Yilmazer]

Im also having same issue time to time. I found out demonstrating a basic colorgrading right there and there solves the problem most of the time.

 

[Mark Toia]

I had a few director friends over the years knocking on my door at midnight freaking out, blaming the DPs for shit pictures from the RED. I quickly throw there files into RCX and 2 seconds later, they are all perfect.
A lot of people keep forgetting, that they are working in a RAW world with RED. You can do anything you want with it afterwards. So long as the exposure is good. Colour is never a problem.

Gotta love RAW.

 

[Matt Dufilho]

Looking forward to finally experiencing it myself, Mark. I have a feeling it's going to be a gamechanger for me.

 

[Jeremy Hildebrant]

Here is a couple other ways things get messed up: Handing off r3d's to an editor who's NLE defaults your footage back to Redcolor 2 and Redgamma 2. Doing a primary grade in RCX but then having the RMD's get shuffled around and lost once it leaves your hands or just not referenced at all by the NLE. Somebody doing a "project manage" or "media manage" from their NLE to pass along and it completely leaving the RMD files behind. People fiddling with the metadata not realizing it instantly rewrites the RMD.
There are a lot of places in the workflow for things to break down if you don't keep your eye on it the whole way through. I get very frightened when I have to hand off footage to those inexperienced with raw workflow!

 

[Matt Dufilho]

Good insight, Jeremy. How can those of us who are inexperienced ensure that we don't leave that metadata behind or throw a wrench in the works?

 

[Dean Butler]

I'm pretty new to RED. Crossed over from DSLR. Loving it. Recently got film convert. Finding that a really nice way to get pleasing skin tones (and if you want your work to look like film). I'm generally shooting between 320 to 800 iso but have been recently aiming to light for 320 rather than 800 as we found dark areas a bit noisier on 800 than 320. Maybe it's just how I'm grading it? But when lighting for 320 I seem to get cleaner results (not that 800 is bad). Do you lose some dynamic range at 320 rather than at 800??

 

[Dean Butler]

I had a few director friends over the years knocking on my door at midnight freaking out, blaming the DPs for shit pictures from the RED. I quickly throw there files into RCX and 2 seconds later, they are all perfect.
A lot of people keep forgetting, that they are working in a RAW world with RED. You can do anything you want with it afterwards. So long as the exposure is good. Colour is never a problem.

Gotta love RAW.

Mark. Just curious. What are the common problems you get from Directors late night door knocks? Are their common problems\mistakes people are making?

 

[Jeremy Hildebrant]

Good insight, Jeremy. How can those of us who are inexperienced ensure that we don't leave that metadata behind or throw a wrench in the works?

Well, see it through all the way to the end if you can. If you can't and you are handing footage off to those NOT experienced with r3d's, I would render out of RCX once you got it looking like you want with a first light. This kinda sucks because you just killed the beauty of staying raw through out the line, but sometimes it is safer.
If you are passing along r3d's and you made some corrections in RCX make sure the RDC folders have both an R3D and an RMD file in there. There is a check box preference in RCX to automatically save RMD's, if it is not checked any change you make will not generate an RMD until you control click the thumbnail and tell it to save RMD. I prefer "automatically save RMD files" to be checked. Just have to be aware that any tinkering you do will automatically rewrite the previous RMD.

I am only familiar with the RCX-Adobe-Davinci workflow so I can only speak on that. Everything up to CS6 (not sure about CC) you need to make sure Adobe software "knows" Red's latest color science. labs.adobe.com is where you will find the plugin files that you manually install for Adobe to recognize Redcolor 3 and Redgamma3, if not all your r3d's will default to Redcolor2 and Redgamma2. I have seen plenty of edit stations default footage back to RC2 and RG2. So make sure whoever you are handing footage off to is aware of this. I don't know about other software packages but I also have experience something similar when handing off to an Avid editor.

Also be aware whether Adobe and Davinci are referencing the RMD's at all. Take note of the Save RMD and Reload RMD buttons in the "source settings" of Premiere Pro! If you started a project in Premiere but then went back into RCX and made adjustments, chances are you will have to click the Reload RMD button for Premiere to reference the new RMD. Vice versa if you made a change in the source settings in Premiere or AE make sure you click "Save RMD". Here's an example if you don't: You made meta adjustments in Source Settings in Premiere, it looks good but you don't click Save RMD, this is fine if this is your last step and you are rendering from Premiere.... But lets say you XML you timeline out for Davinci Resolve, Davinci will not recognize those adjustments because a new RDM was never generated for the R3D that is referencing. RCX also has a Reload RMD but it has always seems to do it automatically for me if I have made meta adjustment elsewhere. Also be careful of when doing a "project/media manage" to clean up and pass along, it will leave the RMD's behind in my experience.

People just need to be really aware of how and when metadata is created, saved, and referenced, this is most important. There's plenty of other variables too along the line, just hope that the people that touch it are aware and experienced enough to notice if something is off a bit, if you can't see through till the end.