ESPN 4K

[Ketch Rossi]

There you go... And who says Sports do not benefit RED shooters...

 

[Christian Beenfeldt]

"Having done quite a bit of it, I really like what is creatively possible with native 3D - however - 98% of the industry embraced it as a gimmick to make more money with little to no intelligent regard and understanding for the format. And of course, there are plenty of other dynamics that really hurt 3D's potential - such as active glasses and poor projection re: brightness/lumens.

4K is a different animal..."

I totally agree with this. Very little was done to put 3D to use as an effective cinematographic or narrative tool. It had a gimmicky feel to it from the start. That the tickets to 3D films are more expensive obviously doesn't help. 4K is very different. It is an obvious - and obviously useful - creative tool. No reason to think that 4K movies will be more expensive to watch. In short, 4K is looking at a very different future compared to 3D. Can't wait! :ihih:

- Christian
Producer with Bird & Beenfeldt Film in Denmark

 

[Peter Strietmann]

I've seen a few reds shooting the America's Cup. A lot of the imagery coming out of it is nothing short of awesome.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

Mpeg2 is LOOKS LIKE ASS and needs to DIE now.

I hate Mpeg2 with a passion! Come to think of it, there are only a handful of things in this world I hate as much as Mpeg 2 but unfortunately I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. There is just too much infrastructure tied to it worldwide.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Sports production for television has been one of my core areas of work throughout my 34 year career in this industry. Since we're talking specifically about ESPN here, 325 of the 900+ network TV programs I've contributed to have been ESPN programs (100 hardlined mainstream sports programs, and 225 non-hardlined mobile alternative sports programs). ESPN, and their competitor cable sports networks, have been in the process of upgrading and re-tooling their tech infa-structure for some time now. Will they eventually cablecast live UHD TV programs? IMO the answer is yes, when their headend and delivery tech enables that. But that being said, IMO the bedrock plum targeted by ESPN and their competitors will be online delivery of edited programs (and then later on some live programs), with cablecast delivery catching up later, but never equaling the emphasis of online delivery.

There are massive amounts of demand and revenue present in the sports TV industry. For decades now sports TV has been the driving force and proving ground for a long series of tech and field equipment advances in the TV industry - and IMO that industry dynamic won't be changing in the foreseeable future.

Sports production for TV is divided into two basic approaches - hardlined live (trucked) production, and recorded for later editing and cablecast production. Live sports is high profile (and high dollar) - and except for the X Games generally involves mainstream sports, rather than alternative sports. But in terms of numbers of programs produced worldwide per year, non-hardlined mobile EFP style of sports TV production (including alternative sports) dwarfs the number of hardlined mainstream sports production.

So what style of sports TV production has Red One and Epic been used the most in over the years? Without question it has been in nonhardlined, mobile EFP style of sports programs. I field produced and directed the very first multi-Red camera, nonhardined mobile EFP style sports production ever done - in December 2007 on the North Shore of Oahu covering the ASP World Professional Surfing Tour event at Pipeline. We shot in 4k (and some 3k), coverering the event using one of my city named pre-production Red One cameras ("Hollywood") in a helicopter using a Tyler mount, another of my Red One city named pre-production cameras ("London") on the beach shooting long lenses (Optimo 12x, Red 300), and my Red One SN 0008 in a custom Mike Hastings made water housing shooting out in the water, right in the barrel. That footage ended up being edited in post and being a core part of a 1-hour edited program that was screened multiple times on Fuel TV (Fox's alternative sports channel).

Since then I've been a part of scores of non-hardlined mobile EFP sports TV productions profiling alternative sports - using Red One from August 2007, then since February 2011 using Epic cameras. With Epic's smaller size (thus increased mobility), and its ability to shoot high frame rates, and Canon and Nikon lenses, the demand for my sports TV shooting has dramatically increased. As an example, I recently spent an entire month using Epic and Canon lenses in the Austrian Alps shooting world-class pro snowboarders for Nike. Other cameras on that production included an Alexa, a Phantom, and various other cine and dedicated EFP camera systems.

There have been some good points and counter-points raised on this thread. IMO the real implementation of UHD sports TV via cablecast, download, and online is not a question of "if", but rather a question of "how soon". That's very good news for owners and users of all UHD-capable camera systems.

 

[Timur Civan]

Sports and porn are gateway drugs.

lmao.... that would be so grossss

 

[Mike Smith]

...So what style of sports TV production has Red One and Epic been used the most in over the years? Without question it has been in nonhardlined, mobile EFP style of sports programs. I field produced and directed the very first multi-Red camera, nonhardined mobile EFP style sports production ever done - in December 2007 on the North Shore of Oahu covering the ASP World Professional Surfing Tour event at Pipeline. We shot in 4k (and some 3k), coverering the event using one of my city named pre-production Red One cameras ("Hollywood") in a helicopter using a Tyler mount, another of my Red One city named pre-production cameras ("London") on the beach shooting long lenses (Optimo 12x, Red 300), and my Red One SN 0008 in a custom Mike Hastings made water housing shooting out in the water, right in the barrel. That footage ended up being edited in post and being a core part of a 1-hour edited program that was screened multiple times on Fuel TV (Fox's alternative sports channel)....

Hi Steve,

Out of curiosity, what frame rates are you shooting for these types of production? 24p or 60p or...

Thanks - Mike.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Steve,

Out of curiosity, what frame rates are you shooting for these types of production? 24p or 60p or...

Thanks - Mike.

Hi Mike,

For alternative sports programs destined for broadcast or cablecast in the USA we generally shoot the body of the program in 29.97p, but we also shoot off-speed slow motion action sequences in higher frame rates. In the example I gave of the Pipeline Masters pro surfing event we shot the bulk of the program in 4k/29.97, and some high action sequences in 3k/59.94 to achieve 50% slow motion. That was Red One in December 2007 so the highest frame rate available in 3k was 59.94, and 29.97 was the highest frame rate in 4k, and no QuadHD was yet available with the camera. If we were shooting the same event today with Epic, and it was destined for television, we'd shoot it in Quad HD/29.97, and over-crank the slow motion sequences to Quad HD/120 fps. Keep in mind that broadcast and cablecast are interlaced, so even though we shot and mastered in progressive, the airing master delivered to the network was interlaced.

High action sports for USA television are almost always shot in 29.97 fps or higher frame rates to minimize judder - thus smoothing out the action aesthetic of the sequences. Quick pans and tilts in 23.98 fps while following sports action simply doesn't fit the smoothness networks are seeking in the programming. If we're following sports action in 29.97 we'll also smooth out the action presentation by going beyond a 180 degree shutter, usually to maybe 72 or slightly higher. If we're shooting over-cranked slow motion sequences at 60 fps, we'll boost the shutter to maybe around 144. If we're shooting over-cranked action sequences at 120 fps with Epic, we'll usually boost the shutter to around 275 or so.

For other programs that require other aesthetic properties, and don't feature a lot of fast action, we'll sometimes shoot them in 23.98 and convert that upward in frame rate for broadcast or cablecast mastering.

Hope the above info helps you...

 

[Mike Smith]

Absolutely. Very interesting stuff. Wow... 285 degree shutter. Fascinating. And makes sense to match the aesthetics of the lower frame rates. Thanks for the insights Steve.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Happy to help...

 

[Neil W. Smith]

HEVC and UHDTV sports adoption

HEVC and UHDTV sports adoption

..... Since then I've been a part of scores of non-hardlined mobile EFP sports TV productions profiling alternative sports - using Red One from August 2007, then since February 2011 using Epic cameras. With Epic's smaller size (thus increased mobility), and its ability to shoot high frame rates, and Canon and Nikon lenses, the demand for my sports TV shooting has dramatically increased. As an example, I recently spent an entire month using Epic and Canon lenses in the Austrian Alps shooting world-class pro snowboarders for Nike. Other cameras on that production included an Alexa, a Phantom, and various other cine and dedicated EFP camera systems.

There have been some good points and counter-points raised on this thread. IMO the real implementation of UHD sports TV via cablecast, download, and online is not a question of "if", but rather a question of "how soon". That's very good news for owners and users of all UHD-capable camera systems.

Very insightful, Steve ... thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge. Quick follow up question ... how significant do you see HEVC/H.265 compression to the widespread dissemination and adoption of UHDTV sports viewing?

Neil

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

There is absolutely nothing working against 4k for ESPN, it is a matter of time.

 

[L. Langer]

2 hours ago ESPN just launched a @ESPN4K Twitter account. And so it begins.

Looks like the account was a fake or something. It has been suspended.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Looks like the account was a fake or something. It has been suspended.

The plot thinkens.

ESPN CTO Chuck Pagano - 6/21/2013 (full article - http://www.multichannel.com/distribution/espn-cto-it’s-too-early-make-big-bets-4k-tv/144034)

“It’s still too early to say if I’m bullish or not 4K,” Chuck Pagano, the executive vice president and chief technology officer of ESPN, said in an interview. “I’m sort of in the middle of the road on 4K right now, because there are still a lot of variables that need to be delineated. There is still a minimal ecosystem for us to do anything with 4K.”

He said many components that will make up the underlying 4K production system, including switchers and graphics engines, are still in development. Vendors are telling Pagano not to expect many of those pieces to be available in desired quantities until 2015.

“Right now I have too many cogs between the two ends of this ecosystem. I’ve got a camera and I’ve got a TV set,” he said. “There’s still a lot of things to figure out before we can say we’re going to be playing in this space or not yet. We’re actively looking [at 4K], but I can’t tell you I have a date in mind.”

 

[Neil W. Smith]

HEVC and UHDTV sports adoption

HEVC and UHDTV sports adoption

The plot thinkens.

ESPN CTO Chuck Pagano - 6/21/2013 (full article - http://www.multichannel.com/distribution/espn-cto-it’s-too-early-make-big-bets-4k-tv/144034)

“It’s still too early to say if I’m bullish or not 4K,” Chuck Pagano, the executive vice president and chief technology officer of ESPN, said in an interview. “I’m sort of in the middle of the road on 4K right now, because there are still a lot of variables that need to be delineated. There is still a minimal ecosystem for us to do anything with 4K.”

He said many components that will make up the underlying 4K production system, including switchers and graphics engines, are still in development. Vendors are telling Pagano not to expect many of those pieces to be available in desired quantities until 2015.

“Right now I have too many cogs between the two ends of this ecosystem. I’ve got a camera and I’ve got a TV set,” he said. “There’s still a lot of things to figure out before we can say we’re going to be playing in this space or not yet. We’re actively looking [at 4K], but I can’t tell you I have a date in mind.”

Good find, Mark ... tend to agree with Mr. Pagano's observation that's there's still a lot of missing pieces in the middle of the 4K pipeline ... acquisition has become the "easy" piece thanks in large part to RED ... the panel vendors are pushing UHDTVs into the living room at the other end but the ecosystem in the middle is not there yet ... that's why I was asking about the significance of silicon enable HEVC decoding in set-top boxes ... until we have cheap chips doing the grunt work (both encoding and decoding) it's going to be a challenge shunting 4K files across an already struggling copper infrastructure that fails to deliver quality HD in most places (well in LA anyway).

Your thoughts on the matter.

Neil

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Your thoughts on the matter.

Neil

APPLE is gonna drive 4K distribution.

 

[L. Langer]

HEVC decoder chips are here and now with at least several companies having designs RTM for set-top/TV integration with more coming every three months. The encoders are also ready on the computer/download side of things but as always, optimization and competition are the name of the game so I expect a little bit more cooking there before things are ready for live network use. I expect it will be another year before we see GPU decoding for h.265 though 4K video decoding foundations have already been laid in Windows 8/8.1 with the latest version of DXVA (Direct X Video Acceleration). 4K video on Linux is getting there but just as it is on Windows, things are unstable and experimental right now.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

HEVC decoder chips are here and now with at least several companies having designs RTM for set-top/TV integration with more coming every three months. The encoders are also ready on the computer/download side of things but as always, optimization and competition are the name of the game so I expect a little bit more cooking there before things are ready for live network use. I expect it will be another year before we see GPU decoding for h.265 though 4K video decoding foundations have already been laid in Windows 8/8.1 with the latest version of DXVA (Direct X Video Acceleration). 4K video on Linux is getting there but just as it is on Windows, things are unstable and experimental right now.

Yup.

http://www.chipsnmedia.com/product_search/product_view.php?part_idx=35&idx=77

TargetApplications:

Smartphones
Media Tablet PCs
Portable Multimedia Players
Desktop & Laptop PCs
Digital TVs
Digital Set-top boxes(STBs)
Video Game Consoles
Blu-ray Players
Automotive Infotainment

 

[Scott Crawley]

A new Apple TV unit is rumored to be on the docket for 9/10. What might that offer?

 

[L. Langer]

A new Apple TV unit is rumored to be on the docket for 9/10. What might that offer?

Possibly 4K. The PowerVR GPU that Apple uses in their products - the latest of which was launched several weeks ago - does support 4K at this time and is used in the new UHDTVs, so we can expect a new slew of Apple products using their latest ARM CPU/PowerVR GPU design.