Why lower your rates and equipment down to nothing just to kill the industry

[ed ng]

This is more of a rant than anything else. I am just sick seeing people lower their rates to nothing, it just kills the market and does nothing for you in the long run.

I would love it if people would just keep the same prices as rental houses in addition to adding their day rate instead of giving everything away for free and then charging a half day rate to boot.

Example:
Basic Epic package $950 a day without lenses, monitors, shoulder rig, etc. and then a day rate to go on top and of course lenses and everything else.

Just saw this posted all for $950 a day (don't know if operator is included but looks like it):
Red Epic X

Titanium PL Mount
Side SSD Module
Red 5" Touch LCD
5" LCD Hoodman
72" LCD Cable
11" Articulating Arm
4x 128GB SSD Cards
Red SSD Station
Module Adapter
2x 3.5" To XLR Adapters

Quad Battery Module
14x Redvolt Batteries
4x Redvolt Single Chargers
DSMC AC Adapter

Allstar Bridge Plate For 19mm Rods
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 18" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods
DSMC Top Handle

Carl Zeiss Mark II Super Speeds
18mm T1.3 (CF 10")
25mm T1.3 (CF 10")
35mm T1.3 (CF 14")
50mm T1.3 (CF 28")
85mm T1.3 (CF 3')
120mm T3.0 (CF 4'6")
180mm T3.0 (CF 5')

Miller DS30 Fluid Head
Vinten Legs (100mm bowl)
Vinten Leg Spreaders

Handheld/Shoulder Rig (Allstar System):

Horizontal Bar, Handles, & Handle Extensions
Dovetail Shoulder Pad
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 12" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods

Dana Dolly
6' Dolly Rails/Track
2x Combo Stands For Track Ends
6x Caster Wheels For Combo Stands
Center Support For Long Rails

Bright Tangerine (Arri) VIV 3 Stage Matte Box
3x 4"x5.65" Filter Trays
Top Flag (Eyebrow)
19mm & 15mm Studio Rails Adapter
150mm - 80mm Clamp Adapter Ring
Lindcraft Lens Donut
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Rosco Trucolor IR Filter
Tiffen Linear Polarizer
Tiffen Glimmer Glass 1
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Schneider Classic Soft 1/4

Arri FF3 Follow Focus
Second Focus Wheel (Dual System)
12" Follow Focus Whip
Arri Speed Crank
7x Marking Disks
0.8/32 Pitch Gear

SmallHD DP1x 9" Monitor
2x SmallHD Batteries
11" Articulating Arm
9" LCD Hoodman

Tiffen 80mm Clamp To Series 9
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Tiffen Circular Polarizer
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Tiffen +2 / +3 Diopters
Tiffen 80A / 80B / 80C

Yes, we all need to make a living but can't we all be a little less competitive with our bids? I love working in this industry but soon enough, renting a Red Epic package with operator will be as cheap as getting a haircut as Super Cuts if this goes on.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Ed

 

[Mark Toia]

Sucks... and will never end. It's human nature to survive on scraps.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Wow, my rates are lower than Rental houses (lets face it they have to be, I can't offer everything a rental house can) but they are not that low. Thats a bit ridiculous. That person could be asking a lot more and still be on the low end.

 

[Matt Ryan]

This is more of a rant than anything else. I am just sick seeing people lower their rates to nothing, it just kills the market and does nothing for you in the long run.

I would love it if people would just keep the same prices as rental houses in addition to adding their day rate instead of giving everything away for free and then charging a half day rate to boot.

Example:
Basic Epic package $950 a day without lenses, monitors, shoulder rig, etc. and then a day rate to go on top and of course lenses and everything else.

Just saw this posted all for $950 a day (don't know if operator is included but looks like it):
Red Epic X

Titanium PL Mount
Side SSD Module
Red 5" Touch LCD
5" LCD Hoodman
72" LCD Cable
11" Articulating Arm
4x 128GB SSD Cards
Red SSD Station
Module Adapter
2x 3.5" To XLR Adapters

Quad Battery Module
14x Redvolt Batteries
4x Redvolt Single Chargers
DSMC AC Adapter

Allstar Bridge Plate For 19mm Rods
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 18" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods
DSMC Top Handle

Carl Zeiss Mark II Super Speeds
18mm T1.3 (CF 10")
25mm T1.3 (CF 10")
35mm T1.3 (CF 14")
50mm T1.3 (CF 28")
85mm T1.3 (CF 3')
120mm T3.0 (CF 4'6")
180mm T3.0 (CF 5')

Miller DS30 Fluid Head
Vinten Legs (100mm bowl)
Vinten Leg Spreaders

Handheld/Shoulder Rig (Allstar System):

Horizontal Bar, Handles, & Handle Extensions
Dovetail Shoulder Pad
Arri 10" Dovetail
2x 12" 19mm Carbon Fiber Rods

Dana Dolly
6' Dolly Rails/Track
2x Combo Stands For Track Ends
6x Caster Wheels For Combo Stands
Center Support For Long Rails

Bright Tangerine (Arri) VIV 3 Stage Matte Box
3x 4"x5.65" Filter Trays
Top Flag (Eyebrow)
19mm & 15mm Studio Rails Adapter
150mm - 80mm Clamp Adapter Ring
Lindcraft Lens Donut
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Rosco Trucolor IR Filter
Tiffen Linear Polarizer
Tiffen Glimmer Glass 1
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Schneider Classic Soft 1/4

Arri FF3 Follow Focus
Second Focus Wheel (Dual System)
12" Follow Focus Whip
Arri Speed Crank
7x Marking Disks
0.8/32 Pitch Gear

SmallHD DP1x 9" Monitor
2x SmallHD Batteries
11" Articulating Arm
9" LCD Hoodman

Tiffen 80mm Clamp To Series 9
Tiffen ND0.3 / ND0.6 / ND0.9
Tiffen Circular Polarizer
Tiffen Low Contrast 1
Tiffen +2 / +3 Diopters
Tiffen 80A / 80B / 80C

Yes, we all need to make a living but can't we all be a little less competitive with our bids? I love working in this industry but soon enough, renting a Red Epic package with operator will be as cheap as getting a haircut as Super Cuts if this goes on.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Ed

What you're recommending is called price fixing, and it's illegal.

In addition, there are 30,000+ Epic camera's in the US alone. That's a lot of cameras competing for rentals. If everyone charged the same as rental houses, only rental houses would get business. It sucks but it's the harsh reality. There's not a lot of money to be made in the rental business especially in Los Angeles where there are tons of cameras available.

 

[ed ng]

Hey Louis! Sorry for the rant but I just had to get it off my chest because it has been occurring more frequently where an agency will call me, I will bid and then I find out that someones friend at the agency hired their friend for less than the rate I just posted!!! FxUK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it is a dog eat dog world but let's keep it to minimum.

Hey Mark! I wish it would end.......NOW. Sometimes I do understand people are doing the "package deal" but at least keep it closer to a rental house and then charge an operator rate instead of free equipment and then half day rate.

 

[ed ng]

Hey Ryan, I am not asking for anything illegal or price fixing, it was never stated that way. I would just simply like to have competitive pricing across the board from operator rates to camera rates. Yes, there are many camera's all over the world and everyone has to make a living but it is just bad in my opinion.

 

[Dominik Muench]

That person could be asking a lot more and still be on the low end.

Asking for something and actually getting something are two different pairs of shoes...unfortunately.

I understand where you guys are coming from but in my experience these complaints usually come from the more established people in the industry aimed at the smaller guys trying to get a break in the business.
I'm in a similar situation....I have decent reliable gear...not the top notch stuff but it surely gets a lot of jobs done...but I cant seem to place myself in the market where I can charge 1500-2K a day because I actually get undercut by the bigger guys in the end.....not necessarily undercut by price but reputation and nonsense gossip. Not sure what its like in your neck of the woods but the industry I have to compete in is extremely competitive, backstabbing and based a lot on word to mouth.....the gossip and nonsense I hear through other people about myself AND my competitors at the same time, is staggering...it seems like everyone is running their mouth off at everyone else while smiling and patting each other on the back at the same time.....and this coming from people who never met me or used my gear or even hired me as a DP and have no clue whatsoever of my work ethics or qualities....but I swallow my pride and never get involved in this....I firmly believe the only way to get ahead of your competition is by working harder, offering quality work and not by discrediting others ....so what are us little guys left to do than try to establish connections and relationships by offering extremely competitive rates.

I mostly blame the attitude of the producers trying to cut corners wherever possible.
For years I have been trying to make a name for myself as being very reliable, friendly and hardworking but the problem here is that there is NO loyalty in this industry or people simply don't care about your efforts....people I have done one off deals for in the past, to get their visions and projects off the ground, and delivered good work will gladly go with your competition next time just because they are 100$ cheaper or because someone offers them god knows what on top.

In the last 8 weeks I was approached by two fairly big productions with the producers offering me the "deal" to come on board for free....so they could asses my work and gear on set...with the promise of paid work in the future....these were not student or small fries productions but theses offers came from established people here in the local industry. Yeah sure I can say "no" and "get stuffed".....but its these people that for some reason seem to get consistent work in and therefore seem to make the rules.

To show you how ridiculous things have gotten....I have a friend in Sydney....not with RED gear but an extensive Sony package and years and years of experience who recently lost a 10.000$ music video job (which here in Australia is considered a decent budget for a MV) to a 17 year old kid with a Scarlet...because the kid was happy to work for free to expand his showreel...Now who's the bad guy here....the 17 year old kid trying to establish himself....or the producer who hired him ? Would you as a producer hire a 17 year old kid if he asked for full rates ?

Rates are established through the costs of running a business and we live in times where different demographics can afford similar gear but the work experience varies.
A DOP with an amazing camera package and 30 years of experience can probably easily charge full rates and get them.....someone who has only been in the industry for a few years can not, but still needs to make a living somehow.
10-15 years ago you never would have seen a filmstudent or a newbie in the industry with their own Arri kit. When I went to Uni it was my dream to own an Arri SR2 kit....which at that time still went for 35-50K and the only people that owned these cameras were big established guys that allowed me to come to their shoots for free as clapper loader to gain experience.

Its an extremely tough time for us smaller guys and while I agree with you and wish I could charge proper rates every time...I can relate to where these cheaper offers come from.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I completely understand, I don't have as much gear myself now-a-days, but I charge mostly for myself and my gear is supplemental as I rarely get to shoot Epic (my lenses are used somewhat often though) There are some items in that kit though that are very expensive though and I worry he will not get his money back ever. Is it right to price fix? absolutely not and I would never agree to such a thing, I just feel bad for the person in question here that has to charge that little to get noticed with that large of an investment. I don't think he'll ever get that investment back before things start breaking and needing repair and such.

This is why I like the industry standard math to figure out rental value. Although most people don't know those rules anymore so the rentme app helps a lot.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

What you're recommending is called price fixing, and it's illegal.

In addition, there are 30,000+ Epic camera's in the US alone. That's a lot of cameras competing for rentals. If everyone charged the same as rental houses, only rental houses would get business. It sucks but it's the harsh reality. There's not a lot of money to be made in the rental business especially in Los Angeles where there are tons of cameras available.

No, there are not 30 000. Maybe 800 in the entire world, likely less (How do I know this? Well, I have a way...)

Price fixing is illegal and not. What is minimum wage? What are union minimums? Both are legal, needed ways of protecting people against their own desperation and the venality of those who would seek to exploit it unduly.

Here in Montreal there are two standard rates: Indy and Rental House - people just stick to those rates out of mutual respect and to prevent things devolving into an unsustainable business. If all these guys go bankrupt, who will Red sell to? Its' not good for anybody.

I have no problem with price fixing.

 

[Dominik Muench]

No, there are not 30 000. Maybe 800 in the entire world, likely less (How do I know this? Well, I have a way...)

Interesting, I though the serial numbers are indicative of the camera bodies out there.
My serial is 2369 so I always thought there'd be at least 2xxx epics out there ?

 

[ed ng]

Hello Dominik, I understand what you are saying and thank you for your input and comments. Most of the time, the producers I work with will get me the rate but they are for larger shoot budgets with a decent sized crew. I do not know what your rates are down there (pun intended) but that is a little better than the post above. It is never a good idea to do it for free just to asses your talent, they can look at your reel for that in addition to having you come in for an interview. It is education and having newcomers understand what they could do to lay down their path in the industry instead of quoting low. A producer is your lifeline so take care of them, build a relationship and pray they don't have a friend who will do it for free.

We are all a part of a community, a community of cinematographer so I hope we could all help each other, regardless of the type of camera we own or rent.

 

[Christopher Mills]

WELL... Aside from price fixing.. there is also the principal of organizing and collective bargaining for the labor side of the equation. Union wages allow minimum compensation to be agreed upon. And still permit the technician to ask for above scale.

I notice that graphic artists communicate and attempt to follow a code of ethics and establish value pricing guidelines.


This problem is not unique to our forum. Personally, i just muddle through and consider each project on its own merits.

I feel that we probably have more equipment and more skilled personnel in this country than there are client dollars to support. But I still live by the credo of "there's always room for one more good one."

The first phase of the race to the bottom rate war darwinism, is that the "grinder" style clients quit accidentally hiring the people who are firm on their prices, causing some of those people to leave the media industry.

The second phase is that the lowest billing vendors are unable to maintain their equipment at the rates they are charging, and have to leave the industry.

The third phase is that the remaining vendors are working on a very tight margin, until demand for their tools and services exceeds supply, allowing them to increase the rates again.

This may take a long time... and is why I discourage anyone from borrowing money to acquire gear for which they do not have a customer.

And of course, remember the supposed russian proverb "Good Enough is the mortal enemy of Best"

Many consumer tools are "Good Enough" for the most ruthless producers. The Best (Cine cameras used by skilled operators) are not needed by them.

 

[ed ng]

Love it that you have rates, I have an entire AICP rate form and generally we all follow it but as of late, there are people who get into agencies through a friend and kill the bidding process.

When I bid, we meet with the creatives and producer, look at the reference/style frames, understand deliverables, work with location scouting and then prepare a proper bid. I just did all of this for a job and got the word that non of this was needed because someones friend would do it for almost nothing and would include the world. Pissed me off so bad that I needed to rant. Bids take time and so does the work, so why not bid accordingly in addition to rates on gear. This is not about Red Epic/Alexa/Canon or any other camera, it is about the total budget which includes all of the above.

No, there are not 30 000. Maybe 800 in the entire world, likely less (How do I know this? Well, I have a way...)

Price fixing is illegal and not. What is minimum wage? What are union minimums? Both are legal, needed ways of protecting people against their own desperation and the venality of those who would seek to exploit it unduly.

Here in Montreal there are two standard rates: Indy and Rental House - people just stick to those rates out of mutual respect and to prevent things devolving into an unsustainable business. If all these guys go bankrupt, who will Red sell to? Its' not good for anybody.

I have no problem with price fixing.

 

[Dominik Muench]

I do not know what your rates are down there (pun intended) ...

I see what you did there

Ed & Christopher: One of the issues here is also that Australia doesn't have a proper filmmakers union like you guys have in the US....which makes it even easier for producers to force their biddings onto us below the line minions....for example it has been common practice on a lot of productions in the last few years that they are scheduled for 12 hour days...but you only get paid 10 hour rates whereas in the past the 11/ 12th hour were already considered overtime.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I am not yet unionized but I would like to be. I've only been outta school since Dec 2010. Work mostly as a tech/editor. I think all of us should unionize and stop taking shit from producers is my true belief. I cannot wait to do it, but it scares me because I don't know if I can get anything besides low end non union gigs... and to top it off I'm upgrading my Scarlet on credit like an idiot lol!

But I am not worried, I always seem to land on my feet somehow and I been saving up so I'm not that bad off.

 

[Mike P.]

There are a hell of a lot more than 800 Epics out there... I thought it was closer to 10k (probably around 30k with Scarlets and RED1s, which were definitely over 10k units).

The problem is most productions wouldn't pay $950 a day for that kit... Even with the Super Speeds. You have really independent indies which are making features for $30k (total sans professional finishing), you have a privately invested indies (which, on average are anecdotally around 1.5mill) and you have studio pictures. Real indies would never pay $950 a day for kit because they can't afford it, and movies with budgets over 1mil (studio or privately invested) would rent for a rental house (and depending on how good the producer is, could likely get a decent Epic package for <$1k/day). I've seen William F. Whites essentially giveaway lighting packages that were supposed to be $5k/week. P+S giving out a camera package similar to the one listed (but with an R1 instead of Epic) for $1500/wk. And those are big-time rental houses... Owner ops thinking they can just say "I got an Epic" and have clients is preposterous at this point (have you seen how good "cheapy" 5Dmk3 footage looks?)... Let your skills pay the bills; kit is nothing but a hobby or collection (which you hopefully use to enable/showcase your skills).

 

[Matt Ryan]

No, there are not 30 000. Maybe 800 in the entire world, likely less (How do I know this? Well, I have a way...)

Price fixing is illegal and not. What is minimum wage? What are union minimums? Both are legal, needed ways of protecting people against their own desperation and the venality of those who would seek to exploit it unduly.

Here in Montreal there are two standard rates: Indy and Rental House - people just stick to those rates out of mutual respect and to prevent things devolving into an unsustainable business. If all these guys go bankrupt, who will Red sell to? Its' not good for anybody.

I have no problem with price fixing.

hahaha I was exaggerating, but there are way more than 800... Between Epics, Scarlets, and R1's. I'm trying to make a point that a lot of people own these. They are no longer rental only items, and that means it's harder to make a return on your investment if you plan to rent your gear out.

Do you believe price fixing will get you more business? Because my bet is it wouldn't. And yes, price fixing is illegal unless you're the government.

 

[Kyle Dones]

In business to stay in business

 

[Michael J Brennan]

I was exaggerating, but there are way more than 800...

We simply DONT KNOW how many RED cameras have been sold and more importantly how many are currently in working order in the hands of customers. In my view any sales figure over 1000 needs to be substantiated with EVIDENCE.

In respect to the conversation regarding owner operators and rates, the democratisation of filmmaking through cheap cameras was the end goal.
No one said such democratisation would be a workable business model for owner operators!

We once had a stable camera rental market because the manufacturers controlled the market. They did a good job from 1985 to 2000, ensuring facility houses and rental houses made enough dollars to replace equipment every three or four years. I was part of discussions where manufacturers met with rental companies about sustainability of each others business.
Cost of entry was in absolute and relative terms high (think of a camera being same price as a house) so wannabe inspirational types without a business head on their shoulders were deterred, you only entered with a good business plan and or some craft or talent or family money!


Despite scores of warnings, including one or two from Jim, there was no shortage of inspirational types (I don't mean to be pejorative) who believed that the new paradigm introduced with lower cost RED kit would deliver to them the historical 1% return per day of hire.
Promises of upgradeable cameras was a compelling selling point, how could you go wrong in business with free upgrades?? well that has turned out to be an achilles heel as everyone has the latest cameras which as time goes on and with depreciation owes you less and less so rates go lower.


There is nothing immoral with either industry model. In one the manufacturers and owners colluded to extract the maximum return out of producers, in the other an uncontrolled glut of equipment has played into the hands of producers.

Many have done really well with RED kit as they provide a good service have good craft skills and work hard, I would bet that they would also have been successful in business with brand x y and z camera.
REDs pricing also allowed many producers to own kit and produce higher quality in house in regional markets, all good stuff for the viewers.




Red has done more than anyone to open up the exploratory, the avant guard art genre of film making but like all art don't expect that there is a guaranteed commercial return.
Be unique, follow the dream, trust your judgement, do your art, just don't expect to make a living doing it and if money is tight, sell the kit if in the last six months you haven't shot something that YOU have really liked.

If your rental kit is the same as everyone else's and your reel is unremarkable, if you don't excel nor have a niche then you are at the mercy of the guy next door who, in denial is lowering rates to maintain his ambitious, poorly thought out business plan of getting into the movies.

Supply versus demand is the core to rental and service pricing. There is oversupply of equipment as well as "average" talent.
If you guys continue to promote that RED has sold 10,000 cameras then you are sustaining the notion that REDs are a dime a dozen.

For the last decade smart money has been shooting and producing your own stuff.. ask Toia!

But that is history, what is the winning strategy for the next decade?

Will you simply go with new technology a camera manufacturer delivers or look through the other end of the telescope to where the market is?



Mike Brennan

 

[Max Nguyen]

No, there are not 30 000. Maybe 800 in the entire world, likely less (How do I know this? Well, I have a way...)

My business partner bought an Epic-X 2066. So you are saying that the number is arbitrary and we are the rare 800 or less in the world that owns a Red Epic? That seems kind of off. Your "way" sounds like bullshit to me.