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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Attn RED: REDCINE suggestions

Andy Cochrane

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After using REDCINE for a few months, I have a few simple tweaks you should consider making to the program. For some background on where these are coming from, it is me comparing REDCINE to the various other pieces of software I have to use daily as a filmmaker and as a VFX artist. These are things that would make REDCINE better and more familiar to the existing film industry.

The fact that it takes over your entire computer (screen and keyboard, OS navigation) is unacceptable. I have never used a single piece of software that does this (outside of a few video games back in the day), and if I ever run into one, I will write a similar note to the people making it. While using REDCINE I want and need to use other programs- Final Cut while checking a conform, the internet while footage is being processed, heck even Color and Quicktime in some odd situations. My guess is that you don't want any other applications running up the CPU, slowing REDCINE down. Please make that my decision. I use software every day that uses 99% of my CPU and almost all of my RAM while it is running, but I still have control over my machine, and if it gets too slow, so be it. Please stop this bad behavior.

The output tab should control the resolution and scaling behavior for the clips, not the shot tab (what if I want to output conformed 1080p clips for color while outputting the same clips to 4k (or a selected subset) for vfx? 2 projects?). having scale settings in the project, shot and output tab, as it is now, is confusing at best. Each raw file has a certain resolution that it was recorded at, and each of my outputs has a set resolution for whatever I want to do with them, so why not have the project be "formatless" and then in the shot tab allow overrides of the output globals (ie if I want one clip to be set to fit horizontally instead of vertically etc I set it for the clip then in the output settings I have a toggle for whether or not REDCINE should obey overrides or not etc.)

The autosave seems broken, when I reopen after closing (as I have to do any time I want to check something in FCP etc...) the project settings will often be changed (resolution, color space, gamma, etc). Using the save is annoying because it is really "save as" and that's not what I want when I am just trying to quickly save and close.

Crimson workflow, as useful as it is, should not exist. I know you are working on it, but an FCP/AVID -> REDCINE link needs to exist. Even if it is somewhat hacky (no layering or transitions or speed changes or something restrictive like that) I would rather open an XML or EDL or some other file directly in REDCINE, have it pull up the raw files of the proxies I edited on (be they RED proxies or ones I made myself in prores or whatever), and get the conform done than spend time in a third program doing a rather convoluted dance that wastes time. This is obviously on your development roadmap... maybe bump it up in priority?

Eventually, with the SDK a lot of our applications will be able to directly access the raw R3D files, which will be great and might honestly eliminate the need for REDCINE almost entirely. One ongoing purpose that I could see for it would be to adjust/alter the QT proxies. Altering that one shot with the wrong white balance, tweaking the exposure in that one shot etc so that they are fixed in the edit and made less distracting would be a nice thing to be able to do.

I think I read somewhere around here that there is a future plan to be able to upload color settings to the camera from REDCINE. I 100% support this idea, it will make a lot of nervous producers, directors and clients a lot calmer. Another idea that might be nice is having a secondary metadata set (even an arbitrary number of them) that we can create and tweak in REDCINE so that as the footage comes in from set we can ignore the camera's settings and create the new baseline metadata for the R3D files as they move through the pipeline (with the option to update the proxies in the process). The original camera metadata should not be discarded, just bypassed with a new set of defaults.

And of course for the new user- a help menu might be a good idea
 
Andy,

to 'answer' one of your workflow problems -> you can hide REDCine (when it's not rendering) by using the F11 key (see the shortcut/help menus -> the "H" Key)

But I agree - having the option to use the standard control H, background processing, rendering etc would be great and VERY Helpful
 
And how about command z to undo.

I just started using redcine but the tutorials on the Red website remind me of an NAB vendor doing a 20 minute sell. A bit more depth would be helpful.

Craig
 
Redcine is brilliant and lame at the same time... I just don't understand why it is STILL not ready for prime time !
-A
 
As a Red data manager who has used RedCine every day since April for reference grading, QC, and "dailies" playback I've been dying for a more tacticle control scheme for navigating and managing the shots.

I want to run RedCine mirrored on a 30" cinema display while I control from a Wacom Cintiq tablet. The swipes are amazing. Everything should work as quickly and intuitively. The Library is a nightmare for quickly locating and pulling up a requested shot for the waiting director or DP.

I think the color parameters are perfect for quick grading, but please make the curve window twice as big.

Hotkeys for controlling playback are a must.

A wipe function for comparing two grades would be lovely.

Embedded audio playback is of course the sexiest thing ever.
 
There are hotkeys for controling playback. Space bar for play and stop, < and > for stepping through frames, up and down arrows for playing forwards or backwards. All just like Scrath. Pressing the 'h' key will get you a list of keyboard commands for operating in whatever module you happen to be in.

As to the other comments - there are definitely some quirks to RedCine's interface, and always room for improvement.

But many of its conventions are very familiar to people coming from DI workstations, which is RedCine's true pedigree.

RedCine does some SERIOUS processing at very high speed. When you start pulling out comparisons to AE, Nuke, Shake, Apple Color, FCP, keep in mind that none of these work in real time, let alone in realtime with 4k data.

RedCine is not designed to play nice with other software, or for multi-tasking. As a matter of fact, multi-tasking is detrimental to realtime software, which always runs most reliably on a very bare operating system with nearly nothing competing for memory, cpu, or gpu cycles. You'll not see tons of software running on a Scratch workstation, Lustre, Baselight, or Pablo. And even though RedCine's featureset is very limited compared to these other systems, it shares the same genetics as Scratch, which is why it kicks so much serious ass when playing back Redcode compressed bayer data in real time while doing whatever you've told it to do to that data (lut, curves, iso, exposure, etc...). Of course we're limited at best to 2k right now, but as cpus get faster and debayer algorithms get more streamlined we'll be seeing realtime 4k.


cheers,

JT
 
Love this program and have no complaints considering it's a beta app and it's free.

I have zero issues on the MacPro, haven't used it a lot on the laptop but it works the same as far as I have experienced, just a lot slower.

Spacebar does not control any form of playback for me though.

Now if I could have controlled edits in RC.....

I'd like to see it developed more and with a price tag (say $1,000) on it to insure a more solid app.
 
The fact that it takes over your entire computer (screen and keyboard, OS navigation) is unacceptable. I have never used a single piece of software that does this (outside of a few video games back in the day), and if I ever run into one, I will write a similar note to the people making it.

Every Discreet Logic program (Smoke, Flame, Fire, Lustre, even Combustion) does this. So does Assimilate Scratch, all Quantel programs, Nucoda Film Master, and Baselight. Fact is, a lot of professional software is written to present the host computer as an appliance to run that specific software, without requiring the user to interact with the underlying operating system. That's done for a number of reasons, avoiding screen clutter is only one of them. Since many people using Redcine are not used to professional software, it seem strange to them. But to others among us, it's not. The design of Redcine is based on Assimilate Scratch, not on other desktop software. Hence the full screen orientation.

Crimson workflow, as useful as it is, should not exist. I know you are working on it, but an FCP/AVID -> REDCINE link needs to exist.

In the case of Avid, it already does, although it hasn't been completely and officially released yet. Unlike some other software companies, Avid prefers to do extensive testing and squash obvious bugs before releasing these things to the general populace :wink:
 
It's not the space-bar, I was wrong... it's the 'enter' key. My hand knows which one it is, but my brain gets confused.

Also the arrow keys. See the help screen for specifics.
 
Every Discreet Logic program (Smoke, Flame, Fire, Lustre, even Combustion) does this. So does Assimilate Scratch, all Quantel programs, Nucoda Film Master, and Baselight. Fact is, a lot of professional software is written to present the host computer as an appliance to run that specific software, without requiring the user to interact with the underlying operating system. That's done for a number of reasons, avoiding screen clutter is only one of them. Since many people using Redcine are not used to professional software, it seem strange to them. But to others among us, it's not. The design of Redcine is based on Assimilate Scratch, not on other desktop software. Hence the full screen orientation.

Actually, all of the Autodesk programs you just mentioned still allow the user to pull up a shell window and access aspects of the system outside of themselves (ever frozen an Inferno? Imagine not being able to pull up the terminal to fix it!). Combustion in particular allows you to minimize or hide the application, just like a normal piece of software. REDCINE is not foreign to me, this behavior just stands out as unusually aggressive OS hijacking.

I just tried the F11 minimize function- thank god that exists, I didn't even know about the help menu and I feel like I read most of the online tutorials and watched the videos I could find... manual anyone? But to not be able to minimize during rendering...

What REDCINE does is hijack the OS completely, it takes control of one screen and the keyboard- if you have another application open in another monitor you can still see it, and in some rare cases use the mouse on it, but you cannot switch to it or interact with it. REDCINE is not Lustre, it is not F/F/I, it is a piece of software released to customers to run on consumer grade computers hand in hand with FCP, AVID, Premiere, and any number of consumer grade compositing and color correction apps. It can't be coded to act like a $200,000 Flame running on a dedicated machine, its not, and as a result it plays very poorly with others.

Also the impetus for asking that this behavior be modified is not just a whim, it came after talking to multiple other working professionals who also daily use the software mmost mentions above. Across the board the reaction has been, "What? That's unacceptable." Combustion may gray out your monitors, but it works within the OS paradigms and still allows you to minimize or switch to other applications. In fact, Combustion is a more applicable comparison to REDCINE than any of the others mentioned in terms of how it should behave.

Also, lunacie, FCP works in realtime. While it may require rendering of some effects, it does basic color corrections in realtime at 2k for me (proxies, but that's what REDCINE is doing internally to the R3D data). My point here is not that I WANT to run 10 applications at once, I just don't like a program that completely takes over its host and locks everything else out. None of the professional applications mentioned in this thread prevent the user from accessing, at the very least, the terminal. REDCINE does.
 
All software mentioned, Baselight, Scratch, heck - even RedCine (!) can have other apps running and shells open - it's just not a good idea if you have a client in the room and real-time performance is the priority.

You can minimize anytime you want, and you can pull up shells anytime you want - during rendering, during idle time, etc...

Your complaint re. documentation is valid, it's tough to know about these things without a single, searchable source of info, but what you ask for is entirely possible now. RedCine does not hijack anything in your OS. F11 will allow you to access any other running GUIs or shells, and:

Rendering in the backgroud is easy: re-prioritize your process. If you're on a Mac then don't forget you're running a version of UNIX, where every process has an ID and is prioritized by command line (renice is the command), and if you're on Windows you do this via GUI (task manager).

I've not used OSX shell commands all that often, more used to Linux & IRIX, but this is how I've done it in OSX:

use the activity monitor to find the process id of redcine, then in a shell type:

renice 20 PID

where renice is the command, 20 is the lowest priority (0 is the 'base' priority, -20 is the highest), and PID is the process ID number you found using the activity monitor.

If you want to raise the priority you'll have to be superuser.

If that's too complicated, then Windows may be the ticket (bootcamp...), where you have a single GUI (taskmanager) that has a list of processes, and a right mouse click will allow you to reset priority to any one of 6 settings. Not as sophisticated as OSX, but easier to use in a pinch.


cheers,

John T.
 
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