Court Rules that Unpaid Interns on Black Swan and 500 Days of Summer can sue Fox

[Mike Garrick]

Mixed feeling about the judgement.

What the "biz" has suffered from & always will suffer from is that so many people want to work in it. There are literally 1000's of people competing for jobs. On top of that we have (for some anyway) the belief that my parents worked in the trade therefore I'm entitled to work in the trade, possibly freezing out truly gifted individuals . This really only leaves a few options for individuals with no experience trying to "break in" .......and please don't give me the crap about talent will always win through. Anyway all these factors creates an environment ripe for exploitation & face it the industry excels in that ....... this will not change.

Myself I know of many truly gifted individuals who have followed the path of "internships" and I'm all for it because this business is the richer for it. The truth of the matter is they wouldn't be here today without some form of free work.........where do you stand ?

 

[Chris Henze]

By law they were promised an educational experience befitting their sacrifice of income. Instead they got used. And they rightfully knew that complaining would get them blacklisted so they probably were slow and weary to throw away a career they had just spent 4 years training to perform over a principle. Luckily one of the plaintiffs was in their 50s and was old and wise enough to know when he was getting shafted.



Yes it's necessary so that a producer can get the Audi RS5 instead of the S5.

Don't forget the extra money needed for the custom color!

 

[Christopher Mills]

These internships were theft from the interns, and film school is not a job placement

These internships were theft from the interns, and film school is not a job placement

Polemic follows:
Plain and simple, those interns were filling positions that would be paid in any other industry.

I bet you've never had a secretarial temp agency, meeting planning or staging company, warehousing and logistics, building demolition firm, or laundry delivery service demand people work an unpaid internship in the hope that they get more work in those tasks in North America. Those industries always have paid entry level positions that perform the same tasks these interns did.

Our actual industry of for profit media creation looks very glamorous to the outside world, and the people who booked these interns knew and exploited that.

The music promotion and releasing industry does the same thing.

They also violate the definition of independent contractor (1099 versus W-4)

They absolutely could have been coordinated with any accredited institution of learning in their area, even a basic community college. Then there would have been time constraints, and actual educational experiences acquired by the participants.

The actual program does NOT teach any of these folks anything about our crafts. There was no structured training period. Anything learned about the industry was learned in conversation with more experienced people who would have been willing to teach as work was done.

Planned training sessions with set curriculum would have been possible.

I suppose that there are cities where public transit is viable for working in an office in the film industry, but if you are in most on set positions, you will start earlier than public transit can get you to work, and leave after it is shut down for the night. It is also frequent that our industry picks locations that are not on the grid of public transit. Your Mileage May Vary. If you do have a vehicle, and are asked to use it, you absolutely qualify as an employee, and your vehicle must be covered by the company on their insurance.. yours will NOT cover commercial use of your vehicle, unless you are already operating a business, and bought that policy.


AND about my second point, College does not serve the purpose of placing you in a job at graduation. It serves to give you the tools to continue in life and learning after you leave.
Film schools have trained more people than are needed for creating the media that will be consumed in exchange for value.
It has trained too few in the crafts and tasks it takes to create large resource projects.

Higher learning institutions are in the business of staying in business, and when that places a lot of their grads where they wanted to be, good for those grads. It has little to do with the missions of those schools.

In past decades, a HUGE proportion of people have graduated from college, and never worked in their major fields of study. The diploma ostensibly proved their ability to learn, the experience was part of their moving into society at large from their smaller social/familial groups of their youth.

 

[Elsie N]

Was Monica Lewinsky a paid intern?... outside of the obvious friends with benefits, I mean.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Case Study. I worked on an under $10 million dollar film last year that didn't have the budget to pay interns in my department. A friend's daughter was interested in gaining experience in the industry and was willing to intern for free for the opportunity. At first she eas tagging along with me and I would try to teach when possible. However as time went on she began helping in other areas and was starting to do a lot of manual labor. I began to realize that this was moving from intern to production assistant, yet she wasn't being compensated. As it turns out she ended up getting sick, I think from too much sun and had to withdraw from the project. She never asked for compensation and I think she was probably okay with that but it didn't sit right with me. She had been exploited, even if it wasn't entirely intentional. I decided to give her a gift card to the Apple Store towards the purchase of a new computer for college. In the future I will be much more careful about handling that type of situation. There needs to be clearly defined guidelines for internships.

 

[Liam Hall]

Steve, you're class act

Was Monica Lewinsky a paid intern?... outside of the obvious friends with benefits, I mean.

Nope. She was unpaid, though they did pay for her dry cleaning...

 

[Brandon J.F.]

That's actually really cool of you Steve.

No one wants to see anyone be taken advantage of, but the unintended consequences of trying to prevent that are what concern me.

I lived in a town where maybe 1 film a year was shot and nothing with a very big budget. I had exactly 0 connections in the film business. No family, no friends, not even friends of friends... Nothing. A movie comes to town and I saw that as a way for me to get my foot in the door. I was 18 years-old with no experience. Who was going to hire me? McDonald's, Blockbuster Video or maybe I could stock shelves in a grocery store? No production company was going to hire me if they had to pay me. The only thing I had to offer was that I was highly motivated and free. Had there been laws in place to "protect" me from offering my own labor at no cost I would have spent the summer doing some menial job I hated. Did I ever for even one moment feel exploited during the 3 months I worked for free? No. Not once. The way I saw it I was exploiting them. I got exactly what I wanted from the experience and thinking about where I'd be today if I was not able to do that internship sends a chill down my spine.

These laws meant to protect interns are only going to make it more difficult for the very people you are trying to protect.

 

[Christopher Mills]

That's actually really cool of you Steve.

No one wants to see anyone be taken advantage of, but the unintended consequences of trying to prevent that are what concern me.

I lived in a town where maybe 1 film a year was shot and nothing with a very big budget. I had exactly 0 connections in the film business. No family, no friends, not even friends of friends... Nothing. A movie comes to town and I saw that as a way for me to get my foot in the door. I was 18 years-old with no experience. Who was going to hire me? McDonald's, Blockbuster Video or maybe I could stock shelves in a grocery store? No production company was going to hire me if they had to pay me. The only thing I had to offer was that I was highly motivated and free. Had there been laws in place to "protect" me from offering my own labor at no cost I would have spent the summer doing some menial job I hated. Did I ever for even one moment feel exploited during the 3 months I worked for free? No. Not once. The way I saw it I was exploiting them. I got exactly what I wanted from the experience and thinking about where I'd be today if I was not able to do that internship sends a chill down my spine.

These laws meant to protect interns are only going to make it more difficult for the very people you are trying to protect.

I started in a then small market, at a young age, and insisted on getting a token payment (minimum wage) So have many others. Because I insisted on being paid something, I was offered a job at more money the next month.
I did and do work for free on friend's projects, and on projects that will absolutely not make money. I have seen people who looked for a second free internship spend years being viewed as valueless in the market.

If you are going to work for free somewhere.. state the hours and term at which you are willing to do this.
As in, I will work for 20 hours a week for 30 days for free (or some such term).
If you find you are merely the pizza boy and janitor, and "personal errand runner", leave.

If you show that you value yourself, others will value you as well. Act like a doormat, and people will wipe their boots on you. Especially in the "entertainment industry."

While we have a lot of brilliant and creative and supportive people in this industry, we have a shocking amount of sociopathic and exploitive people in positions of power.

Do a good job, the places that actually promote interns and value you will pay to keep you.

A related problem is that large markets and large businesses in all markets and all industries are using free labor and claiming that they benefit the "volunteer."

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I started in a then small market, at a young age, and insisted on getting a token payment (minimum wage) So have many others. Because I insisted on being paid something, I was offered a job at more money the next month.
I did and do work for free on friend's projects, and on projects that will absolutely not make money. I have seen people who looked for a second free internship spend years being viewed as valueless in the market.

Had I insisted on minimum wage I would have never got the meeting. I never even considered doing another internship.

If you are going to work for free somewhere.. state the hours and term at which you are willing to do this.
As in, I will work for 20 hours a week for 30 days for free (or some such term).
If you find you are merely the pizza boy and janitor, and "personal errand runner", leave.

I agree that the terms have to be clear. I had no problem running various errands.

If you show that you value yourself, others will value you as well. Act like a doormat, and people will wipe their boots on you. Especially in the "entertainment industry."

That's an absolute fact. I made it very clear that I only was doing this once and told everyone the next film I work on will be my own and it was. When we wrapped lots of the paid crew I had gotten to know said to keep them in mind when I do my feature. In fact my boss's last words to me were, "I hope you hire me someday."

While we have a lot of brilliant and creative and supportive people in this industry, we have a shocking amount of sociopathic and exploitive people in positions of power.

Totally agree.

Do a good job, the places that actually promote interns and value you will pay to keep you.

I was offered paid work later.

A related problem is that large markets and large businesses in all markets and all industries are using free labor and claiming that they benefit the "volunteer."

It's a competitive business that will chew you up and spit you out if you let it. Don't.

Hard to believe this was 17 years ago. Time sure flies...

 

[paulherrin]

on slavery

on slavery

'if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others.' - abraham lincoln

slave (noun)
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.

let's meditate, for a moment, on what slavery feels like over what it looks like historically. but first let's do understand that american slavery is entirely distinct from something like greek or roman slavery; even so it has always been at least in the best interests and responsibility of slave 'owners' to provide basic necessities such as food, water, and shelter, as well as training, transportation, and basic medical care in order to properly use and maintain their 'property'.

let's momentarily forget our conditioning that slavery is limited to, or even primarily, a physical state of bondage. that is to say one is physically forced to do labor against one's will and physically incapable of attempting escape or emancipation otherwise. let us expand our definition to what we already know to be true, that slavery is primarily:

a condition of the body, mind, or soul wherein a person is influenced by an idea, person, system, or substance (real or imagined) that results in tasks (tangible or otherwise) being performed (or suppressed) from a position or feeling of insecurity, necessity, hopelessness (or hope) as qualified by power-relations (as distinct from compensatory measures real or imperceptible).

let's remember then, for a moment, that slavery is not so far from our industry or society as we might like to imagine. it is not necessary to completely redefine the word we know as slavery to understand that abusive employment conditions, regardless of the manner in which they masquerade, are a very real (albeit subversive) manifestation of servitude in the modern developed world. whether you sell your-self or are taken captive is entirely arbitrary as the condition and consequences are substantially similar.

charity, collaboration, and apprenticeship aside, working at your own expense to primarily benefit another (or promoting/practicing such) is short-sighted and (yes) selfish by the fact that it is both unsustainable and de-values an already de-valued people and practice. in ancient art, craftsmen and slaves are virtually indistinguishable. ever wonder why masons would need to be designated as free? temporary, unpaid, abusive internships are merely the reflection on the outermost onion-skin that represents our sick system of slavery.

is slavery a hyperbole? does it matter?

anyways, that's it for our daily dose... if you don't like me or honest abe, perhaps you'll listen to morpheus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4zICmyuNvs

to consider our benefit to community before benefit to self equally benefits ourself and others.

peace.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Perhaps it is just me who finds this whole idea laughable, for this is not a hard concept to understand. But people will rationalize anything. Simply remember this, even a prostitute is paid.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Brandon I understand that it would seem like the only reason you succeeded was because you were allowed to work for free but your story doesn't entire suggest that it is true.

You say that only one movie a year comes through town... so clearly you left town to start working.
You say you told everyone you'll only ever work for free once... so again, clearly you left town to start working.
You say that it was your experience that got you into the industry but...

Why couldn't you have skipped the free unpaid internship and just moved right from the start and applied for a paid PA position? If your answer is "nobody will hire a PA without experience" then you have just identified why unpaid internships without educational programs attached are so damaging to the market. Without unpaid internship in your story hypothetically you could have just moved to LA (or wherever you are now) and simply applied for an entry level PA job. Gotten paid and gotten the experience instead of going unpaid from the start.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Slight tangent... what is the average day rate for a PA in LA?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Slight tangent... what is the average day rate for a PA in LA?

$110 or around there.

 

[Robert Hart]

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/whats-working-no-money-201700022.html

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Brandon I understand that it would seem like the only reason you succeeded was because you were allowed to work for free but your story doesn't entire suggest that it is true.

I never said it was the only reason. It was a fast track to get where I wanted to be.

You say that only one movie a year comes through town... so clearly you left town to start working.

No, that internship was the only time I looked for production work. I came back a year and a half later and shot my own feature (35mm, Panavision) hiring many of the people that worked on the movie I interned on.

You say you told everyone you'll only ever work for free once... so again, clearly you left town to start working.

I told them the next film I will work on would be my own. I never left town to start working. I left town to go to school which proved to be a total waste of time and money.

You say that it was your experience that got you into the industry but...

Why couldn't you have skipped the free unpaid internship and just moved right from the start and applied for a paid PA position? If your answer is "nobody will hire a PA without experience" then you have just identified why unpaid internships without educational programs attached are so damaging to the market. Without unpaid internship in your story hypothetically you could have just moved to LA (or wherever you are now) and simply applied for an entry level PA job. Gotten paid and gotten the experience instead of going unpaid from the start.

I was 18 years-old and broke. Moving across the country to LA, where I knew no one, would have been totally impossible. The alternative was only that I work a minimum wage fast food job for the summer. That's it. That internship benefited me far more than the $4 an hour I would have gotten making hamburgers ever would have. Requiring educational credit for internships just creates another barrier to entry for people who can't afford film school or don't want to be buried in debt. It also creates more potential for abuse. I was free to quit anytime I wanted and would have if I was not treated right. However, if I was required to finish the internship in order to graduate, like many are, and there was no way to leave an abusive situation without throwing 4+ years of school down the drain then there is a big potential for abuse.

Looking back I feel more exploited and taken advantage of by the college I went to that did nothing for my career and only buried me in debt.

It was 17 years ago, but I can tell you what my 18 year-old self would have said to you: I own myself. I have free will. I don't need people who do not know me or my situation telling me what's best for me.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Anecdotal stories carry a lot of emotional impact.. and can show one side of an argument in a good light. Every story of exploitation has stories about good outcomes and kind people. There were Germans who helped the jews in Nazi Germany. There were slave owners who were kind and supportive to slaves. There are soldiers who treat the enemy humanely. (No, I am not trying to equate this issue with murder and slavery. Just trying to make a point about anecdotal outliers.)

But for every anecdote of this type, there are often 10 or 100 times more that show the pattern of behavior more realistically. If the exploitation wasn't as prevalent as it is, the issue wouldn't be an issue. Sometimes there is oppression and the group that is oppressed needs societal support, often in the form of regulations and laws, to prevent abuse. Shit happens but we don't have to stand by and just let it.

EDIT: Brandon - I would suggest that if the norm, or the law, was that interns had to get paid at the time you approached this group - even if you told them you didn't care to get a pay check, that they would have probably hired you anyway (at the lowly intern wage) because of your eagerness and enthusiasm. The pay most likely been an issue since it is often so little compared with the many other costs of a production. I sincerely doubt that if others couldn't undercut you by offering to work for free - you wouldn't have had to either. Just my guess.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Not to mention there is still a lot of room for 'entry level' PA rates. $110 sounds about what I'm used to hearing too. US minimum wage (varies by state) is about $8. 10 hour day = $80 per day. So that's almost a 50% premium on hourly rate to pay $110. $80 to a production is nothing.

And I have no problem with unpaid internships that aren't even for official credit. Shadowing should be a free position. Just so long as you're doing anything and you're doing it under supervision of someone else. If you're setting up C Stands under the supervision of a grip that's one thing. If anything you're slowing production and distracting to crew so production companies really are doing it as a service to the student. If you're working independently though... you're just working. If you're getting coffee... you're just an unpaid PA.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Not to mention there is still a lot of room for 'entry level' PA rates. $110 sounds about what I'm used to hearing too. US minimum wage (varies by state) is about $8. 10 hour day = $80 per day. So that's almost a 50% premium on hourly rate to pay $110. $80 to a production is nothing.

But $80 * 6-day weeks * 8-week shooting schedule * 20 interns = $76,800. that's before the cost of transporting, feeding, and insuring 20 additional paid workers. at a 10 hour day with no overtime, no travel compensation.

Black Swan had 20 interns. Fox Searchlight employs 100-150. So $460,800 across their slate that they certainly don't want to spend.

It will always be about money...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The film was budgeted at $10-12 million. The box office was $329 million worldwide.

The $76,800 cost calculated above is approximately .7% of the budget and .02% of the gross.

And we can probably assume the marketing budget comfortably exceeded the production budget.