Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED's home 4k Projector under 10k, Sony's home 4k Projector over 20k!!

There is no reason RED can't be a leader in the projector market, just as they are in the camera market. No reason for them to be a chaser. They had (have?) plenty of features on the table for the REDRAY projector to make it an industry leader. I do believe that when/ if they release the projector, it will be that industry leader. REDRAY was always built into the projector. You don't need to use REDRAY to use the projector. It has simultaneous, full-resolution, passive 3D in a single unit. Auto-calibrating long-life laser system, wide (as in freakin' huge) gamut support and the list goes on. If RED launched it for 3X their announced price, it would still be the best deal going in the projector market.

I'm not so sure I agree that the projector market technology is really changing. It seems very stale to me. Sure, we're seeing the push into 4K/ UHD now, just as we are with HDTVs and monitors, but there's nothing huge happening in terms of optics, light source, industrial design, etc..

The unfortunate reality of this is there is no REDRAY projector in sight for the foreseeable future. I'm probably just going to buy the Sony. I will wait until the last minute to order before I need to have a projector... That day is rapidly approaching. 2 months probably. For sure no more than 3.
 
new 4K Projector coming ...

new 4K Projector coming ...

Jeff Kilgroe said:
The unfortunate reality of this is there is no REDRAY projector in sight for the foreseeable future. I'm probably just going to buy the Sony. I will wait until the last minute to order before I need to have a projector... That day is rapidly approaching. 2 months probably. For sure no more than 3.
Click to expand...

Jeff, don't buy anything just yet ... we have a 4k projector in development which might just surprise you ... the prototype was nearly ready to show at our 4K Training Day last Saturday ... we're doing some more testing this week and as soon as I think it's ready we'll organize a demo at The Lot in West Hollywood ... can't go into specifics on technology or pricing at the moment but it is a new approach at a new price point.

Bear with me for another week and I'll update you asap.

Are you going to be in LA anytime in the near future? ... would love to be able to show you the combination of the new 4K Projector plus Eizo CG276 plus SEIKI UHD TV all working together ... pretty damn cool!

Cheers,
Neil
 
Exciting times!

Neil W. Smith said:
Jeff, don't buy anything just yet ... we have a 4k projector in development which might just surprise you ... the prototype was nearly ready to show at our 4K Training Day last Saturday ... we're doing some more testing this week and as soon as I think it's ready we'll organize a demo at The Lot in West Hollywood ... can't go into specifics on technology or pricing at the moment but it is a new approach at a new price point.

Bear with me for another week and I'll update you asap.

Are you going to be in LA anytime in the near future? ... would love to be able to show you the combination of the new 4K Projector plus Eizo CG276 plus SEIKI UHD TV all working together ... pretty damn cool!

Cheers,
Neil
Click to expand...
 
Jeff. I agree with most of what you are saying. But most of the consumer HT interest here is due to two points. Laser lit and 4K for $10K. There is only a tiny consumer market for 4K for $30K. People except for a small group just don't have $30k to spend on a projector. Most people who have purchased the Sony paid under $19K for it. At Cedia we will see 4K projectors announced for under $12K MSRP which will street for around $9K. Delivery by the end of the year. Red would have to chase this. Forget about features yada yada. Its all about the price and Red was very disruptive perhaps unintentionally in dangling a 4K laser lit consumer projector for the consumer market for under $10K. The sad thing is that many consumers are so technologically naïve that they believed Red and thought release was rather imminent when Red showed a prototype but then even saying the commercial machine would be released first. Why? A commercial machine had no price associated with it by Red. I agree that a commercial machine at $30K to $40K laser lit would sell but only in the commercial market with a few high end consumer users. For the secondary commercial market, that is struggling small theaters who have yet to convert to digital, Red would have to offer financing and this market is on very shaky financial footing. Back burner under very low heat sounds like a smart plan by Red. Sooner or later people will forget but will instead be dazzled by a clean room factory on display at NAB. Why did they do that? Why spend the money to do that? Why not just save the money and lower camera sensor upgrade prices by the money saved? Sounds like dazzle them with the footwork. I don't get it nor do I care much.
 
Last edited:
Neil, VERY interested here, specially if its over 3300 lumens calibrated rec709.
 
Neil,

Keep me posted on when your projector can be seen in the LA area. I'd like to check it out.

Mark,

The 1000ES menu refers to full 16:9 (3840) as "Normal", and then refers to 1.85 and 2.35 options, so I was sticking to that for clarity.

Reality Creation worked for 4K sources on every unit I demonstrated or trained with. Actually improves 4K clarity.

Last word I got, the RED projector was still being worked on. Back burner was not code for dropped. Things could probably change, but I remain optimistic.
 
Last edited:
Neil,

Extremely intrigued. Keep us posted!
 
Neil W. Smith said:
Jeff, don't buy anything just yet ... we have a 4k projector in development which might just surprise you ... the prototype was nearly ready to show at our 4K Training Day last Saturday ... we're doing some more testing this week and as soon as I think it's ready we'll organize a demo at The Lot in West Hollywood ... can't go into specifics on technology or pricing at the moment but it is a new approach at a new price point.

Bear with me for another week and I'll update you asap.

Are you going to be in LA anytime in the near future? ... would love to be able to show you the combination of the new 4K Projector plus Eizo CG276 plus SEIKI UHD TV all working together ... pretty damn cool!

Cheers,
Neil
Click to expand...

Neil,

Any update yet? Love to see it.
 
Neil,
I would love to attend that demonstration.
pleaae email me when it happens.
of course if that's a possibility.
thank you
my email: shapour34 at gmail dot com
 
4K DCI projector ...

4K DCI projector ...

Rob McDonough said:
Neil,

Any update yet? Love to see it.
Click to expand...

Yep ... we did some more testing on Sunday ... colorimetry is coming along nicely ... we can dial the chroma, gamma and luma levels in pretty well now and 4K EPIC footage looks crisp and sweet ... the test footage we threw up on the screen on Sunday just happened to be a cute looking young lady (yer, I know) ... her skin tones were very natural ... fine hair detail shone through and her blue eyes really popped.

The issue at the moment is connectivity .... we've been testing BMD DeckLink Extreme 4K card plus TITANs plus NVIDIA K5000 using every combination of Display Port, HDMI and DVI connectors on Macs and Windows ... reliable drivers on both platforms is the hold-up at the moment ... we're getting close but not yet ready for public consumption ... we'll see how engineering gets on this week and we'll do some more testing next weekend.

We have a Kona 3G and Hi5-4K on its way .... it'll be interesting to see if that combination works ... I've always trusted the purity of the AJA HD SDI signal and how well they architect their protocols .... just hoping the Hi5-4K can take care of the handshaking and conversion from SDI to 4K HDMI .... AJA Kona 3G/Hi5-4K and Apple FCP X and Adobe apps will be a great 4K combination once we'v got it all to work.

BMD engineering are also on the case investigating the DeckLink 4K handshaking with the SEIKI UHDTV monitor .... once they get that sorted we'll be able to test Resolve 4K out to the both the SEIKI and the 4K projector.

Interestingly, in my lab at the moment I have 3 x SEIKI UHD TVs plus the 4K projector (when the engineers let me play with it) ... on Sunday whilst playing out EPIC 3840x2160 footage on all four display devices it struck me as quite sublime how far we've come in such a short time ... when we first set up LumaForge/Hollywood DI way back in the summer of 2005 we invested $100,000 dollars in a 2K DLP projector and $30,000 in a JVC HD projector just to be able to watch uncompressed HD QuickTimes and 2K DPX files playback ... now? ... we think nothing of playing back 4K ProRes4444 and 4K .r3d files on a 50 inch TV that costs $1500 and a projector that's going to cost a lot less than a 2K DLP.

It's been seven years since we first graded those first images off the first RED ONE ... the 4K images of the Oakley watch were 72 MB TIFFS each ... we needed a beefy SCRATCH system with Fibre channel RAIDs to grade them ... and now, I'm playing back 4K ProRes4444 files on the rdMBP on my lap and in the lab using a 50 inch UHD TV as my Windows desktop ... truly amazing times!

Cheers,
Neil
 
Neil, I definitely want to know more as this continues to develop!

No immediate trips to LA anytime soon. I'm kinda grounded here for a bit as I have a few things going on that I just need to be here to deal with. Perhaps I could sneak away at some point here... One of those things I have going on is the remodel project for which I'll need the projector. So...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Neil, I definitely want to know more as this continues to develop!

No immediate trips to LA anytime soon. I'm kinda grounded here for a bit as I have a few things going on that I just need to be here to deal with. Perhaps I could sneak away at some point here... One of those things I have going on is the remodel project for which I'll need the projector. So...
Click to expand...

Will definitely keep you posted, Jeff ... you've been a great source of sound technical knowledge and reliable advice over the years ... also a continual source of inspiration on achieving the right balance between pushing the technology envelop at the same time as being totally pragmatic - I always read your posts, always learn something of value.

Once we have the connectivity issues sorted out and I have a higher degree of confidence that the product is 4K stable, I'll run some 4K image pipeline workshops here in West Hollywood ... would love to have you attend and share with us your wisdom and vision and get your feedback on the 4K end-to-end workflows we're developing.

Cheers mate.
 
Thanks for the info Jeff. Can you pride more details such as the type of projection chips, DLP or reflective LCD and the lumens?
 
Last edited:
Neil W. Smith said:
Jeff, don't buy anything just yet ... we have a 4k projector in development which might just surprise you ... the prototype was nearly ready to show at our 4K Training Day last Saturday ... we're doing some more testing this week and as soon as I think it's ready we'll organize a demo at The Lot in West Hollywood ... can't go into specifics on technology or pricing at the moment but it is a new approach at a new price point.

Bear with me for another week and I'll update you asap. .
Are you going to be in LA anytime in the near future? ... would love to be able to show you the combination of the new 4K Projector plus Eizo CG276 plus SEIKI UHD TV all working together ... pretty damn cool!

Cheers,
Neil
Click to expand...
Jeff. I hope you are making progress. As a HT consumer and not in the film industry itself but as a consumer of its end products, films, I am troubled by Red's announcements about projectors and playback devices and then delivering nothing. I do fully expect that by years end red will be shipping a player and hopefully much sooner. Re the Red projector, they bantered around a laser lit 4K projector with an expected $10K price. There is a hundred plus page thread dumping on Sony for bringing to market a bulb lit 4K machine at a $25K MSRP. Many consumers stupidly thought Red would deliver while those in the projector industry said no, that would be impossible in the near term and by near term I mean within three years of Red's wait its coming soon. Fortunately, I didn't wait, paid a discounted price and happily have been watching upscaled 1080p 24 in 4HD or 4K. My need for a 4K display palls in comparison to many in the film business here who need a 4K projector now. There has been one informal study by Joe Kane which showed that industry professionals in the 4K capture and mastering industry could not notice the many flaws in their work unless they were observing their images on a 10 ft wide screen. A 50 inch display instrument is not adequate for perfecting images to be shown in commercial theaters and large screen HT environments. What I find troubling in your quoted post, is the Don't buy anything yet. To me this implies we should have something very good coming very soon. If true, this means you are essentially ready to roll into production when the connectivity issues are solved. I would assume your companies are not manufacturing based and you would have the units manufactured by one of the several overseas companies which OEM projectors. I would assume you have not developed nor produced a display chip not have developed your own optical block but I really don't know. I know you might not want to discuss any of this at this point but I would ask are you telling the industry to wait at this point and that you will be able to supply a product by the time many in the industry need it which is very close to now? I do not intend any hostility in my post, just concern as a potential consumer of your product if it comes to market, has great performance and comes in at a price I can afford. Should I sell my Sony now and safely expect a machine by the fall?
 
Last edited:
Neil,

Thanks. Keep us posted.

Seems like interfacing, especially with a variety of server based sources, is a common problem. That appeared to be what was going on between the Redray and the Toshiba TV at CES, and I pointed out some issues to Sony (twice) that led to finding several similar compatibility mismatches under a variety of specific conditions. HDMI, DVI-HDMI conversion, firmware, signal clipping, dynamic range, contrast, all can get pretty tangled up. Standards need to be clarified and strictly followed on all sides to smooth things out. Sony used to host compatibility "Plug-fests" to help catch and eliminate problems between manufacturers.
 
So there is more talk of 4K monitors, but I think it is fairly well established that a big screen projector is needed to reveal the truth about what has been shot in 4K(+), and how it will really look on the big screen.

Do we still have to whisper, or is there anything to really talk about with regard to a RED 4K projector this year?
 
I am very much looking forward to RED putting a UHD and/or 4K projector on the market. Based on their track record, I expect it to offer excellent performance for the price. The problem is, we have no idea when it will be available. In the meantime we have the Sony VPL VW-1000ES which is fine as far as it goes, but it's price point and HDMI 1.4a dependence make it, IMO, an expensive short term band-aid.

I keep hoping that Epson, NEC, PD or some other vendor will bring a under $20K UHD projector to market sooner than later but no love so far. I have to wonder how much the delay in getting a certified standard for HDMI 2.0 published, and the hardware fabricated to support it, is slowing progress.

Based on past experiences with Sony projectors aimed at the home theater market, they typically follow up a pioneering product at a high price point with an even more capable and far cheaper second generation version. Unless RED is much closer to getting their projector on the market than anyone outside of RED knows, my greatest hope is that a second gen unit from Sony, of similar size and lumen output to the 1000ES, with HDMI 2.0 or 4x HDMI 1.4a, will come out for under $10K list and be shown at CEDIA in September.

Cheers - #19
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top