HOW RELIABLE IS AN EPIC ?

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Never had a stopping problem or annoyance with either our Scarlet or Epic.

 

[Brice Ansel]

Terry, you are getting on my nerves. You can´t forbid sb. to speak or to say the truth. After reading your posts I am sure you live in your own world, but that´s for sure not the real world.

Mr Macneal I'm afraid Terry just spot on you right.
You sound like a bad Troll.
I suggest you to process in a more discrete way next time you change name.
Trolling is a very difficult task, especially on Red User where we are get use to it.
I don't know who's paying you to write that, but if I was the client I'll pay you nothing!
Too much of a bad performance. ;-)

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Don´t be angry, but "not-knowing-how-the-camera-works" is definitively not the reason for the problems with the camera, and sounds a bit like a platitude.

The problems with the RedMote is just a know-how-to problem. The latest firmwire makes the RedMote easier to setup (automatic) and nobody complains.

I own Epic-X #716 and Scarlet-X #346. Fairly early builds, and I've never had a stopping problem with any of them, but we've had issues when people don't know how to use the cameras, but since most of our users are young and fresh from film-schools, they have a less arrogant attitude than the DOP's who just bash Red, and are not willing to learn. A Scarlet or Epic are rather complicated boxes, and if you want to use them without learning them, you are asking for trouble if you need to do more than just basic stuff. On the other hand, why would any professional DoP not try to learn and get comfortable with one of the most used cinema cameras in the world?

The problems obviously come from hardware, softare and sloppy quality of the gear.

What kind of problems?

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Hello again:
did you see this? http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?98080-Urgent-help!-On-location-Epic-stuck

Obviously I should continue with Epics from rentalhouses, because if something like that happens on set I can sit down relaxed and have a cup of coffee until the rentalhouse has fixed the problem.
I think I would have an heartattack if this happens with my own camera, and I´m sure this client woudn´t hire me again.

True, things like this will happen to some units. When you build thousands of units, some of them can have issues. Thats when it needs to be returned and replaced. This happens with ARRI and SONY products as well, even Apple products. I've had to return one iPhone and a laptop due to hardware error. Last week I got a replacement HDLink from BM as the unit were broken when it came in new.

If you are going to use your own camera for a client, you always need to have a back-up plan if something fails. Rental houses has back-ups, long before Red arrived, so if you want to deliver just as safely as them, you need to have a deal with someone else in case something goes wrong.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

The worst problems (and rare) we've had have only required re-starting - so 20 seconds of time on set - no lost clips, ever. On of our Epics had a sound board issue, but Red fixed it right away, were super helpful and attentive to the issue, at $0 cost to us, even paid for overnight shipping from and to Canada, so that was not a problem for long - and even that was 100% fine in terms of video performance, it was only the sound.

Our Red One MX has lost a total of 6 frames over many years of shooting. Our Epics zero frames. I have used many digital cams, and our Epics and Red are the most reliable I have ever seen.

Epic sound quality is utter crap - that is my only complaint, maybe it's the jacks, not sure. Red MX sound quality is fine. We always use a soundman with his own recorder, so we don't much care anyway as its just a guid track .

 

[ericyoung]

The worst problems (and rare) we've had have only required re-starting - so 20 seconds of time on set - no lost clips, ever. On of our Epics had a sound board issue, but Red fixed it right away, were super helpful and attentive to the issue, at $0 cost to us, even paid for overnight shipping from and to Canada, so that was not a problem for long - and even that was 100% fine in terms of video performance, it was only the sound.

Our Red One MX has lost a total of 6 frames over many years of shooting. Our Epics zero frames. I have used many digital cams, and our Epics and Red are the most reliable I have ever seen.

Epic sound quality is utter crap - that is my only complaint, maybe it's the jacks, not sure. Red MX sound quality is fine. We always use a soundman with his own recorder, so we don't much care anyway as its just a guid track .

Hi Robert

Can you elaborate on wnat was wrong with your sound board? Also, what do you mean the sound quality is utter crap?

I'm trying to work out if I'm being overly fussy about my own Epic's audio now I'm thinking of using the camera to record sound.

 

[Max Zug]

Somehow this camera seems to become some kind of a career-killer or job-killer for a few people...
I don´t understand this, because I always thought all those Beta-test-issues are fixed.

So my question is: Is a Red Epic in your eyes a reliable camera, that I can buy regardless or should I continue to rent it to keep away the responsibility for technical problems because of the fact that RED is not able to build a camera that works.

Thanks in advance!!!

Owner/operator here
Zero Issues with my Epic X
Zero issues with my former Red One

We're talking about technology on the very edge of possible. And utilizing this technology for very demanding customers on very demanding schedules. This isn't for the faint-of-heart. Anybody who has worked in the business long enough has had cameras fail. It happens. You build in contingencies. You roll with it. You understand the limitations and you push them. Your clients know this. It's probably why they picked you.

In all areas of this business -- you either go for it. Or you don't. Your camera choice is just one of the decisions that will define how you operate in this industry. Your post suggests Red is probably not for you.

max zug

 

[Antony M]

...

Come on Red, you build cameras for how long? 7 years? Perhaps you should concentrate on reliability instead of K´s. Who needs 6K?! Noone! What we need is a camera that works.
...

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I often get the impression that Red are so busy designing, building and promoting the "next big thing", that they don't put as much effort into fixing existing issues.

In terms of reliability of the Epic, it seems from both my personal experience, reading RedUser and talking to other Red users, that some cameras are rock solid, but others have lots of issues.

Unfortunately my Epic is one of the ones currently having issues :-(

 

[Antony M]

What kind of problems?

I have had the temperature display disappear, which in turn means the fans don't turn off.

I have had the Touch Screen lock up and stop responding to either touch or the buttons.

I have had the camera just power itself down, whilst connected to AC power.


And I'm pretty sure none of these are "user error" !

 

[Elsie N]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I often get the impression that Red are so busy designing, building and promoting the "next big thing", that they don't put as much effort into fixing existing issues.

In terms of reliability of the Epic, it seems from both my personal experience, reading RedUser and talking to other Red users, that some cameras are rock solid, but others have lots of issues.

Unfortunately my Epic is one of the ones currently having issues :-(

Antony, are those issues being addressed? Are they so much of a problem you wish you owned another brand of camera? I'm sure RED could build us a camera that is absolutely bullet proof but I doubt if you or I could afford to buy and use it. And once they got the capabilities locked in there would be no "new-camera-through-firmware" every few months.

I think RED is the victim of their own industry leading success. The more they change how camera companies do business, the more some of their customers forget what life was like BR... (before red)

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Hi Robert

Can you elaborate on wnat was wrong with your sound board? Also, what do you mean the sound quality is utter crap?

I'm trying to work out if I'm being overly fussy about my own Epic's audio now I'm thinking of using the camera to record sound.

Sound board only recorded noise, and when sound was turned on in the menu, the camera sometimes didn't work at all - but like I said, it was fixed very quickly and fully, without issue, by Red. I find sound on any Epic lacks clarity and dynamic range, has poor detail, and generally is just something for guide track only. It sounds way worse than Red one Mx sound, using same mics. Overall though I don't get the sense Red spent a lot of time engineering the sound aspect of any of their cameras - they seem meant to be used with a separate sound recording device, which is what we do - sometimes we even use an EX1 for sound (EX1s have great sound, and then you can do a visual synch which I find easier) on those rare occasions we don't have dedicated sound crew.

But, you know - so what? A good sound deck is cheap as dirt - that's not why you buy or rent a camera like an Epic.

 

[ericyoung]

Sound board only recorded noise, and when sound was turned on in the menu, the camera sometimes didn't work at all - but like I said, it was fixed very quickly and fully, without issue, by Red. I find sound on any Epic lacks clarity and dynamic range, has poor detail, and generally is just something for guide track only. It sounds way worse than Red one Mx sound, using same mics. Overall though I don't get the sense Red spent a lot of time engineering the sound aspect of any of their cameras - they seem meant to be used with a separate sound recording device, which is what we do - sometimes we even use an EX1 for sound (EX1s have great sound, and then you can do a visual synch which I find easier) on those rare occasions we don't have dedicated sound crew.

But, you know - so what? A good sound deck is cheap as dirt - that's not why you buy or rent a camera like an Epic.

Thanks for the clarification - I've always been disappointed in how audio is such an afterthought on Red cameras. Much cheaper Sony and Panasonic camcorders seem to be able to do far better sound.
Sure, separate sound is generally preferable, but I often work alone or with tiny crews, so good, or at least decent, camera sound and controls would be so welcome.

My Epic-X is at Red at the moment because I'm not happy with the sound.

 

[Robert Hart]

Alex.


All you can do is what you have already been doing. Use it more. Read widely, do the research and make the decision for yourself. Weigh the risks and benefits as everyone else does. Factor in if you seem to have more good luck than bad or vice-versa. It is said we make our own luck, determine our own destiny or whatever. Other counsel suggests that it is all in the hands of the gods or fated.

Way back when Noah was a pup and film was becoming the main tool of visual newgathering, a new camera came out. It was the Cinema Products CP16 and its successors. There was a sort of RED versus ARRI thing going at the time. The CP was described by some as an inferior product with a less stable film transport. That was a bit of a furphy. IN more recent times, it was again disproven by Ken Hale who did a double exposure test on a CP16 which was used but in good state of maintenance. The images did not walk but were as steady as a rock with each other on screen projection.

It sold by the bucketload because it had stepped outside the envelope. It did what it did extremely well because it was robust, everything was inside a solid metal container away from the elements. Car doorhandles and the like were not going to have any luck snagging cables because there were only the mike and headset leads. After news went video, the CP became a featherduster but also has since given a lot of people pleasure as an affordable film camera. There was more pose value perhaps in owning and operating an Eclair or the Queen Liz of cameras, the Aaton. The CP needed to adapt and as a locked in design, there was little room to move. The GSMO which followed was a brave effort but it seems not a wanted child.

Interestingly, the more successful video systems which replaced the CP followed the same form factor we now know as the ENG camera.

My observation is that in a contrary twist, the RED camera family has gone the same route as the european 16mm/Super16mm cameras in that a highly modular system has been adopted. Where there is a joint or a fixture, this has to be observed and maintained. The ARRI SR was regarded as the workhorse which could take a whipping and was in its turn whipped. The Aaton was more delicate but refined and did not noise the hell out of the place when it was running. The CP could be absolutely filthy and there was still a strong chance it would never scratch film. Not so all the other film cameras for which the cleanliness next to godlyness rule applied.

The loaded CP could be hauled out of its box, the battery flipped over in its holder from safety to its connected position, pointed and running even as the subject was being found as the cameraman ran after the journo whose jacket would be flapping like a mad batman impersonator's cape. The other film cameras could be so treated but really needed better care, a craft to be thoroughly learned for each camera type lest film be scratched. The CP was a nightmare to change mags fast. Watching a fast operator thread the thing with all the flipping and snapping of the film into its place was almost compulsory entertainmment. The newer euro cameras with coaxial mags were a dream to load.


So where does that stream of consciousness ramble take me?

The RED family has its benefits and vices. It is a serious production tool. It is complex and has its own set of rules to be seriously learned. There may well be another generation of product maturity for it to undergo. There was not much you could stuff up on a CP as it was largely self-contained. The modularity of the RED with its flexiblity also invites the by-product of many third party aftermarket bits and pieces, each with its own benefits and vices. Not all are going to play nice or predictably. Know the tool. Plan for contingencies. Practice-practice-practice. Read this forum until your eyeballs look like you have done fourteen rounds with JD overnight. There are published solutions to many practical issues, some of them way out there. Perhaps somebody will extract and collate them one day.

As for diplomatically dealing with some of the more sensitive souls of the faith here. Try to avoid approaching the rear of the milking cow with its tail raised whilst carrying both a sharp stick and a lit match with wilful intent, unless you yearn for some fiery blowback. It is a serious inventment to make. There may be more than just a little buyer's guilt and consequential defensiveness at play. Do you really need or just simply want your EPIC.


That was a good effort tonight. Now I can sleep justly knowing that I, in my own turn, have churned the sevenday stew with a big wooden spoon.

 

[jorge krausch]

I agree with the reliability... but im having a major shoot with major clients 2000 miles from home ..also my first creative job in a year so I picked the alexa because I cant afford even a 0.1% risk.. however I own and love my red epic..

 

[Elsie N]

Alex.


All you can do is what you have already been doing. Use it more. Read widely, do the research and make the decision for yourself. Weigh the risks and benefits as everyone else does. Factor in if you seem to have more good luck than bad or vice-versa. It is said we make our own luck, determine our own destiny or whatever. Other counsel suggests that it is all in the hands of the gods or fated.

Way back when Noah was a pup and film was becoming the main tool of visual newgathering, a new camera came out. It was the Cinema Products CP16 and its successors. There was a sort of RED versus ARRI thing going at the time. The CP was described by some as an inferior product with a less stable film transport. That was a bit of a furphy. IN more recent times, it was again disproven by Ken Hale who did a double exposure test on a CP16 which was used but in good state of maintenance. The images did not walk but were as steady as a rock with each other on screen projection.

It sold by the bucketload because it had stepped outside the envelope. It did what it did extremely well because it was robust, everything was inside a solid metal container away from the elements. Car doorhandles and the like were not going to have any luck snagging cables because there were only the mike and headset leads. After news went video, the CP became a featherduster but also has since given a lot of people pleasure as an affordable film camera. There was more pose value perhaps in owning and operating an Eclair or the Queen Liz of cameras, the Aaton. The CP needed to adapt and as a locked in design, there was little room to move. The GSMO which followed was a brave effort but it seems not a wanted child.

Interestingly, the more successful video systems which replaced the CP followed the same form factor we now know as the ENG camera.

My observation is that in a contrary twist, the RED camera family has gone the same route as the european 16mm/Super16mm cameras in that a highly modular system has been adopted. Where there is a joint or a fixture, this has to be observed and maintained. The ARRI SR was regarded as the workhorse which could take a whipping and was in its turn whipped. The Aaton was more delicate but refined and did not noise the hell out of the place when it was running. The CP could be absolutely filthy and there was still a strong chance it would never scratch film. Not so all the other film cameras for which the cleanliness next to godlyness rule applied.

The loaded CP could be hauled out of its box, the battery flipped over in its holder from safety to its connected position, pointed and running even as the subject was being found as the cameraman ran after the journo whose jacket would be flapping like a mad batman impersonator's cape. The other film cameras could be so treated but really needed better care, a craft to be thoroughly learned for each camera type lest film be scratched. The CP was a nightmare to change mags fast. Watching a fast operator thread the thing with all the flipping and snapping of the film into its place was almost compulsory entertainmment. The newer euro cameras with coaxial mags were a dream to load.


So where does that stream of consciousness ramble take me?

The RED family has its benefits and vices. It is a serious production tool. It is complex and has its own set of rules to be seriously learned. There may well be another generation of product maturity for it to undergo. There was not much you could stuff up on a CP as it was largely self-contained. The modularity of the RED with its flexiblity also invites the by-product of many third party aftermarket bits and pieces, each with its own benefits and vices. Not all are going to play nice or predictably. Know the tool. Plan for contingencies. Practice-practice-practice. Read this forum until your eyeballs look like you have done fourteen rounds with JD overnight. There are published solutions to many practical issues, some of them way out there. Perhaps somebody will extract and collate them one day.

As for diplomatically dealing with some of the more sensitive souls of the faith here. Try to avoid approaching the rear of the milking cow with its tail raised whilst carrying both a sharp stick and a lit match with wilful intent, unless you yearn for some fiery blowback. It is a serious inventment to make. There may be more than just a little buyer's guilt at play. Do you really need or just simply want your EPIC.


That was a good effort tonight. Now I can sleep justly knowing that I, in my own turn, have churned the sevenday stew with a big wooden spoon.

Robert, you write with great flair. Couldn't easily follow what you said but I loved the way you said it! '-)

I've milked a cow before and the picture you painted with words just had me in stitches.

 

[Robert Hart]

Elsie.


You would know therefore, up close and personal, the eyestinging swing of the shitty tail if you have forgetfully failed to tie it up.

It has been unkindly said that writers are purveyors of wellcrafted bullshit. I am but one of them.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

II have had the temperature display disappear, which in turn means the fans don't turn off.

I have had the Touch Screen lock up and stop responding to either touch or the buttons.

I have had the camera just power itself down, whilst connected to AC power.

I'm not saying that this is good, but have these errors repeated themselves to such a degree as to making it a problem, or did a simple restart fix the issues?

 

[Elsie N]

Getting a Dragon sensor upgrade for an Epic is for "those who boldly go"... etc. Anyone who harbors feelings of trepidation can always shoot the R-1. That baby has been battle tested and pretty much locked down. Epic X is reaching that stage but the Dragon sensor is probably best described as being in beta, although a pretty solid beta stage, I'm guessing. There are rewards for owning beta cams as you will be seen as someone who can handle a beta camera and coax the wonders out of it. It's not just about the status of the camera but the status of the operator as cutting edge, as well.

 

[Elsie N]

Elsie.


You would know therefore, up close and personal, the eyestinging swing of the shitty tail if you have forgetfully failed to tie it up.

It has been unkindly said that writers are purveyors of wellcrafted bullshit. I am but one of them.

I've been slapped up beside the head (or in the back of the head if I had my head buried in her flank) more than once. Never used hobbles and the caked tail was too hard from the dried shit to tie around the leg, so I just toughed it out. The worst part was when the cow would kick if I forgot to put my head in her flank. That sometimes led to a hoof in the bucket. You had to fish out the dried stuff real quick so you could still have some milk to take to the house. Dad didn't look kindly on an empty bucket. '-)

 

[Robert Hart]

Not all AC power providers deliver as promised. The AB Titan I have on the SI2K is fine but another approved source drifts a bit low when our mains power drops after all the stoves and kettles go on in the early evening. The camera then says I'll turn off now".

Touch screens. Not all they communicate is golden honest, espeically if the power is a bit grubby or connections a bit glitchy. Also patience can be a virtue. At 4K+ the computer inside has a lot to think about. Give it time to think and don't be too feverish with the touch commands. That on its own, and/or an intermittent connection can sometimes set off a lockup if a processor intensive black calibration or framerate/resolution change is being executed on my camera. It seems to happen if I get impatient and have a poke if things seem to have slowed down a bit. A reboot seems to fix it.

Temperature display. - As for touch screen, much for the computer to think about. - Maybe a train of thought may get lost by the computer if a temperature operation co-incides with some other busy stuff going on and the memory or buffers or whatever functioning magic runs out of space.

The argument may be put that the system could be a bit more robust. Consider thought that the littlle box is doing the job of a very highly powered computer. It is likely right up hard against the leading edge, available affordable tech can likely deal with. Sometimes I want it all and I want it now has its price.