REDray Projector..

[Wayne Morellini]

Mark, don't be too negative. The problem with Red is they can leave it to the last minute to tell you somethings washed when they have known for months, not good. They need to tell people something is dead and they have an alternative when they decide. I was waiting for fixed scarlet only to find out it was gone. So back burning leaves people a bit off. They are doing Redray first (when is it coming) which is part of the projector. I would rather they Blackburn redray and introduced the projector.

Said this before, even if they could give us a cheap 2sqm projector that has to be used on a special screen in a room, now, is preferable to waiting.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Mark, don't be too negative. The problem with Red is they can leave it to the last minute to tell you somethings washed when they have known for months, not good. They need to tell people something is dead and they have an alternative when they decide. I was waiting for fixed scarlet only to find out it was gone. So back burning leaves people a bit off. They are doing Redray first (when is it coming) which is part of the projector. I would rather they Blackburn redray and introduced the projector.

Said this before, even if they could give us a cheap 2sqm projector that has to be used on a special screen in a room, now, is preferable to waiting.

Yeah, I really don't see how the Redray is more important then the projector, the Redray offer something few can use, most people don't have any 4K screen to view content on and if we speak about professionals then we already have what we need to playback Red material... what we don't have is a color accurate, good projector or screen for 4K.

Who will buy the Redray? Compared to who will buy the projector?

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

Yeah, I really don't see how the Redray is more important then the projector, the Redray offer something few can use, most people don't have any 4K screen to view content on and if we speak about professionals then we already have what we need to playback Red material... what we don't have is a color accurate, good projector or screen for 4K.

Who will buy the Redray? Compared to who will buy the projector?

The projector has the player built in, ergo the player can come before the projector but not the other way round.

The player can also run multiple screens or just provide a very high quality image to a single HD display. THats in addition to a number of UHD screens out there.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You missed the point Peter, the projector could have come out long ago without the player, we want the projector more than the player. The player is holding the projector back, that is what is annoying.

 

[Marc Wielage]

You missed the point Peter, the projector could have come out long ago without the player, we want the projector more than the player. The player is holding the projector back, that is what is annoying.

I'm mystified as to why Red believes the two have to be tied together as one thing. Why not make them modular and sell a Projector (part A) and then a Red Player (part B)?

I agree, the market for a $10,000 4K laser projector that could be precisely calibrated for DCI specs would be a fantastic achievement. I bet Red could sell more of those than they do cameras.

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

You missed the point Peter, the projector could have come out long ago without the player, we want the projector more than the player. The player is holding the projector back, that is what is annoying.

Good to know that you know exactly the issues going on within the projector and redray player without being told by RED.

The projector is by far the more difficult achievement here. 2 4k images at 120fps each? That's one hell of a thing for a projector to be delivering. Building a dedicated computer (as that's essentially what a media player is) to provide that feed is several orders of magnitude easier.

I am more interested in the projector, but I understand that I don't have all the info to make the decision of which comes 1st. I'm willing to bet you don't either.

The Distribution network may well earn me more money than having the projector in my set up though. So while I want the projector more ODEMAX and the box in others' hands may well be the business boost I need.

 

[L. Langer]

They are probably holding it off for hardware improvements and because they want to launch it when the competition goes on the market in the Fall. The holiday season will bring quite a few 4K UHDTVs with a new HDMI revision and some 4K content providers.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Good to know that you know exactly the issues going on within the projector and redray player without being told by RED.

The projector is by far the more difficult achievement here. 2 4k images at 120fps each? That's one hell of a thing for a projector to be delivering. Building a dedicated computer (as that's essentially what a media player is) to provide that feed is several orders of magnitude easier.

I am more interested in the projector, but I understand that I don't have all the info to make the decision of which comes 1st. I'm willing to bet you don't either.

The Distribution network may well earn me more money than having the projector in my set up though. So while I want the projector more ODEMAX and the box in others' hands may well be the business boost I need.

Because I work in both fields for my own designs. Redray is by far the more difficult, as you would know if you worked both. Did they say 2x120fps? Maybe we are both mistaken Peter. I understood 120fps divided up between stereo vision. Redray is not only a player, the player is the player, redray was the ultra high with high quality compression codec the player runs (but they keep changing terms), orders better than what was out there reportedly, something not so simple for most work group, and years in development. The player circuit is likely an extension to the camera asci technology, the most complex camera chipset made at the time, nowhere near several magnitude of order simpler in itself . However the business negotiations and arrangements to reach the present Odemax proposal and work is also complex. However, we ask for a basic projector, and the extra frame rate and features are not needed. Also with the projector, there have been a number of laser video projectors, it is a understood technology, with Kodak doing some latter work for cinema, so they can stand on the shoulders of this work to develop it. With the compression and asci, there is substantial new work to do to reach their targets. As I said, elsewhere only a super supper new laser technology can be complex and produce delays as for design issues. It is all a matter of breaking down the options, courteously regarding people as competent in these options.

My ultimate laser projection mechanism proposal is more advanced than all others. One day I will hopefully get to afford to implement it and do all those projects people want me to do on kickstarter. I have come up with a superior compression codec mechanism many years ago as well. Some people at Red are from my old group, where I've mentioned only a little of my own compression research, enough to push the current envelope of the day. We stand on the shoulders of giants, better to also stand on the shoulders of knowledge, and skill and ability in knowledge (reasoning), then you won't be dependent on giants.

See here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?98019-One-More-Thing/page4

@ Mark, maybe the decision to integrate the player and projector is to use the same circuit and save money. But alternatives can be cheaper. The design and production investment in asci can be substantial, raising the price until you can sell enough volume to pay it off more quickly. So those circuits might not be cheap until Redray hits a peak and a cheaper camera comes. However, it is likely that there are a few cheaper solutions, until you make enough asci's to reduce its cost o'er unit to match. Hence forth, Scarlet, Red One and Epic, had to be more expensive to pay for everything not just the asci. Jim basically said it had been done and dropped the epic price. I think BMD used their cheap volume codec part used in their shuttle to etc in their camera, and somebody's volume sensor. If you look at it, it is basically a digital video recorder with a camera and camera software. Makers of cheap tablet recorders might wake up to this and do the same.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Old 8k laser projector:

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/Laser-Projector-delivers-3D-images-at-4K-x-4K-resolution-561770

 

[Larry Kelly]

To answer this question based on the published technical specs, the Red Ray player can only output 422 4K. This is due to the limitations of HDMI, not the player. The internal player, because it is right on the board, goes beyond that allowing for greater bit depth and over all better IQ. This gives Red's projector an edge over all other screens and front projectors. Brilliant if you ask me.

Larry

I'm mystified as to why Red believes the two have to be tied together as one thing. Why not make them modular and sell a Projector (part A) and then a Red Player (part B)?

I agree, the market for a $10,000 4K laser projector that could be precisely calibrated for DCI specs would be a fantastic achievement. I bet Red could sell more of those than they do cameras.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Its not going to happen this year or next. I have posted the reasons over and over. When Red says slightly back burnered, its like an 18 year old saying he only has a short time left until he becomes 21. So the Red loyalists can wait and wait to get a 4K projector. No problem for anybody. Yes sir. But when it comes it will surely be the best.

Man, who peed in your cheerios?

Anyway, looks like the projector is indeed on the back-burner. I'm still hoping it will make another appearance later this year. I *NEED* a 4K projector NOW!!! I really don't want to do the Sony "home" 4K unit. Pixel quantity aside, I haven't been all that impressed with what I've seen of it. The small BARCO is very appealing, but it's pricey. So at this point, I'm going to wait for the REDRAY projector and let my budget [hopefully] grow. If I get to the point where the BARCO fits and the RED projector is still not in sight, I'll probably pull the trigger.

I still wanna be 1st in line to beta test the projector.....

You missed the point Peter, the projector could have come out long ago without the player, we want the projector more than the player. The player is holding the projector back, that is what is annoying.

I don't think Peter missed the mark on that one. The projector, as designed, depends on REDRAY. It depends on the proprietary data pathways for image generation and the huge color gamut. It doesn't use typical 10bit/12bit RGB interconnects via HDMI/DisplayPort/SDI to drive itself from the REDRAY player. And that is only one of the related properties. REDRAY is crippled when you connect it to a conventional display. So, while it's true that RED could have delivered a projector, they could not have delivered the projector they intend to.

I'm a very patient man. I'm content to accept that it will get here when it gets here... And when it does, I'll be knocking down and trampling all of you to be first in line.

I'm mystified as to why Red believes the two have to be tied together as one thing. Why not make them modular and sell a Projector (part A) and then a Red Player (part B)?

I agree, the market for a $10,000 4K laser projector that could be precisely calibrated for DCI specs would be a fantastic achievement. I bet Red could sell more of those than they do cameras.

Even if they went modular, they still need to finalize the specs for the interfaces to achieve what they want. The REDRAY player is done in terms of consumer interfaces, who knows where they are at on other things. We also don't know where they are at in terms of development and testing on CRIMSON. I think CRIMSON is already out there being tested.

Player ships real soon to a handful of early beta customers.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Jeff. I talked at length to a respected color scientist today and he told me that he profiled one of this projectors (the Sony home 4k one) and even though it didn't meet p3. It was tantalizing close. It only failed on the most extremes greens and teals/emeralds/cyans.

It's kinda exciting actually. And they can be had for about 17-18k.

 

[roryhinds]

I must say it was sad not seeing the Red Projector at NAB this year (2013) after all the fuss they made about it last year with a clear statement of available.

They didn't even have it as there projector in their NAB theatre.

The other thing that is strange is with Dragon shipping, I think its strange we haven't seen any footage from the Dragon, you would think they would have been showing off at least some footage from the new 'available now' sensor.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Man, who peed in your cheerios?

Anyway, looks like the projector is indeed on the back-burner. I'm still hoping it will make another appearance later this year. I *NEED* a 4K projector NOW!!! I really don't want to do the Sony "home" 4K unit. Pixel quantity aside, I haven't been all that impressed with what I've seen of it. The small BARCO is very appealing, but it's pricey. So at this point, I'm going to wait for the REDRAY projector and let my budget [hopefully] grow. If I get to the point where the BARCO fits and the RED projector is still not in sight, I'll probably pull the trigger.

I still wanna be 1st in line to beta test the projector.....



I don't think Peter missed the mark on that one. The projector, as designed, depends on REDRAY. It depends on the proprietary data pathways for image generation and the huge color gamut. It doesn't use typical 10bit/12bit RGB interconnects via HDMI/DisplayPort/SDI to drive itself from the REDRAY player. And that is only one of the related properties. REDRAY is crippled when you connect it to a conventional display. So, while it's true that RED could have delivered a projector, they could not have delivered the projector they intend to.

I'm a very patient man. I'm content to accept that it will get here when it gets here... And when it does, I'll be knocking down and trampling all of you to be first in line.




Even if they went modular, they still need to finalize the specs for the interfaces to achieve what they want. The REDRAY player is done in terms of consumer interfaces, who knows where they are at on other things. We also don't know where they are at in terms of development and testing on CRIMSON. I think CRIMSON is already out there being tested.

Player ships real soon to a handful of early beta customers.

He did, because it was about what we wanted and what we were annoyed at, that is what I meant. There are better color gamut specs, the new ultrahd one for one. The new HDMI is coming, supposed to be released around now. Maybe redray will get it, if they are waiting long enough. Display port already can handle the data do not know if they have uHD 4:4:4. The new thunderbolt is 2x20mb/s channels, so I suspect we will see a new displayport that can handle 8k. At 8k you could use 4:2:0 and not see too much difference. Actually, does display port have a 8k mode already, I think it might have the bandwidth? Haven't look for a while.

See this is the issue, a basic consumer redray with displayport could have been out for a while, while they develop a redray and crimson version. Now somebody else can crash the party when they come out, well before, the number of fullhd laser video projectors is on the rise, and it is only a matter of time before they transfer that experience and technology up to 4k. Looked over the dmd ti site, and they seem to be real interested in making it real easy for people to use their chips, but don't seem to have a consumer 4k version yet. They probably want to make a lot on 4k and fhd chips for now, but the market for 4k hopefully is worth more. You may land up buying a dmd 4k if redray does not come out this year, many may do that, a uhd or the other.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I must say it was sad not seeing the Red Projector at NAB this year (2013) after all the fuss they made about it last year with a clear statement of available.

They didn't even have it as there projector in their NAB theatre.

The other thing that is strange is with Dragon shipping, I think its strange we haven't seen any footage from the Dragon, you would think they would have been showing off at least some footage from the new 'available now' sensor.

You're right. I expected to find Alexa busting sample shots on the product page at least.


@Jeff
I know that this is off topic, but do you know how scarket handles color now? Do they have automatic saturation level and balance options in camera, and manual setting, and one click, now Jeff. So you can shoot and hand off the footage, or set it now to save time adjusting in post?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There are better color gamut specs, the new ultrahd one for one.

You're joking, right? So far everything about UHD is weak sauce. It's essentially a resolution bump and little more.

The new HDMI is coming, supposed to be released around now. Maybe redray will get it, if they are waiting long enough. Display port already can handle the data do not know if they have uHD 4:4:4.

I'm assuming the projector will get HDMI 2.0. However, it still won't be able to supply the projector to the extent of which its capable, neither will DisplayPort, not unless we use multiple connections and proprietary signaling. Upcoming Falcon Ridge Thunderbolt effectively doubles the available bandwidth on a single TB port. No talk of 8K. There is talk of dual 4K channels on one port though. Thunderbolt may actually take over for DisplayPort moving forward, nothing in the current or proposed DisplayPort specs to facilitate 16bpc full-UHD frame packed 3D, for example, whereas Thunderbolt will be able to handle it later next year and there's a lot of murmurs about the two specs merging officially and to a broader range of products.

The new thunderbolt is 2x20mb/s channels, so I suspect we will see a new displayport that can handle 8k. At 8k you could use 4:2:0 and not see too much difference. Actually, does display port have a 8k mode already, I think it might have the bandwidth? Haven't look for a while. See this is the issue, a basic consumer redray with displayport could have been out for a while, while they develop a redray and crimson version. Now somebody else can crash the party when they come out, well before, the number of fullhd laser video projectors is on the rise, and it is only a matter of time before they transfer that experience and technology up to 4k. Looked over the dmd ti site, and they seem to be real interested in making it real easy for people to use their chips, but don't seem to have a consumer 4k version yet. They probably want to make a lot on 4k and fhd chips for now, but the market for 4k hopefully is worth more. You may land up buying a dmd 4k if redray does not come out this year, many may do that, a uhd or the other.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Sure, RED could have released a projector. Perhaps it would've been the projector you wanted, possibly the projector that many people wanted. It would not have been the projector I wanted, nor the projector RED has been talking about. I don't want a DisplayPort, HDMI 2.0, etc.. interface between my player and the projector. I want the player directly integrated with the laser engine to have finite control over all aspects of it. To me, it's one of the huge advantages of the REDRAY projector concept. If I just wanted a 4K/UHD "home" laser projector, I guess I would feel differently about it. Those are about to become a dime a dozen and I don't think RED wants to be in that game. And that's not the droid I'm looking for...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You're joking, right? So far everything about UHD is weak sauce. It's essentially a resolution bump and little more.

See the rec.2020 color gamut diagram on the side:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Television


Jeff, if you make the projector and the player you can custom format the displayport to recognise each other and transmit is what ever format you choose. In a/computer you can specify far wider color gamuts, even beyond human sight, and get the driver to interpret the displayport data differently. Again, not an issue, you can set the projector to recognise the incoming color gamut expanded to fill it's gamut, set from the computer etc.

The issue with what I'm saying, is that a cheap projector would not have stopped you getting your projector, just another product in the series, along with Crimson. We would all be happy on time. The big advantage of a cheap projector is that it would have filled up the market before others got theirs out, then they would have had to decrease their prices to sell. Now, Red might face competition, then not so much.

 

[Peter Proniewicz-Brooks]

See the rec.2020 color gamut diagram on the side:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_High_Definition_Television


Jeff, if you make the projector and the player you can custom format the displayport to recognise each other and transmit is what ever format you choose. In a/computer you can specify far wider color gamuts, even beyond human sight, and get the driver to interpret the displayport data differently. Again, not an issue, you can set the projector to recognise the incoming color gamut expanded to fill it's gamut, set from the computer etc.

The issue with what I'm saying, is that a cheap projector would not have stopped you getting your projector, just another product in the series, along with Crimson. We would all be happy on time. The big advantage of a cheap projector is that it would have filled up the market before others got theirs out, then they would have had to decrease their prices to sell. Now, Red might face competition, then not so much.

Cheap and basic aren't really REDs style though are they? RED re not here to produce the entire market range of devices they are here to provide the high end at cheaper (but not cheap) prices. The death of the 3k for 3k Scarlet and the birth of the Scarlet-X shows that.

And a cheaper projector may well have delayed the development of the higher end one as its another product to test and develop.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Jeff, I was going to share an amusing story you tonight.

As much health picked up my eyesight improved, and I went and saw Vmax session. I don't go to moves much, and hardly ever an expensive session. I was shocked because I noticed I could see a screen door effect between the pixels at certain times, had to really look for it though. I thought it must have been a 2k screen, now I suspect that maybe it is the off sub pixels. Ran into the manager today and found out it is supposed to be a 4k screen.

Standing in front of a LG 84inch today, had I could see the same thing. Seems to be something below what your brain can zoom in on individual pixels, but still can see it as a patch of pattern if you look for it. So you don't notice it.

4k projection is dead, we need 8k

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Cheap and basic aren't really REDs style though are they? RED re not here to produce the entire market range of devices they are here to provide the high end at cheaper (but not cheap) prices. The death of the 3k for 3k Scarlet and the birth of the Scarlet-X shows that.

And a cheaper projector may well have delayed the development of the higher end one as its another product to test and develop.

Spin, Peter, it's spin, they change direction over time. Its always about what is the best direction, and they could have already made a killing at $5k, but now it is late in the day for it. Don't let companies get in the way of good old logic, as many did to film and video people for decades. I appreciate the reasons for changing direction, it happens with many smaller mid sized companies (Red is not Apple, Microsoft or Hewlett Packard or Google ) big meals are hard to chew.

When I get my own little budget projector to market I will try to go full value, but my little company will not do anywhere near as much as Red could do, so I will get limitations to overcome. It's not just brains that gets you far in this business, or contacts and relationships, but wealth and health. Health can help you a lot, but wealth can help to do more.

Just come up with another two laser projection technologies today, one based on my older research as I mulling over mechanisms, I call Constant Flow, should solve some of the eye injury problems of scanned lasers. It is not as good as my best one, but a good second place and fits my product, now if only somebody had the millions to invest in developing it. I'm also looking (nope a third idea just cropped up based on some other display tech I came up with) at resolutions past 8k with some of these future technologies I cannot develop at the moment, however one that I could do might be able to reach 256K, but that is where you get seriously seriously high end equipment to do it, not 4k 120fps that nearly $1k TV's are doing. Also there are functional issues at 256k to examine and over come. 64k is a lot easier in various ways. For people that know a thing or two about what parts are out there will know why I have chosen those numbers. For now I'm just keeping it simple.