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SCARLET 1080 with Higher Frame Rates

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Shane Duckworth

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I'm posting this so that the higher ups at RED might answer and/or start to think about why this option doesn't exist.

Why does the Scarlet not have an option to Record 1080p WITHOUT cropping the sensor. If RED truly wanted a camera that could compete with the C300, it should make the the SCARLET have the ability to record 1080p by bottle necking the info, rather than a cropping sensor . Additionally, it should be able to record at to 60fps in that mood, if not higher. For the type of work and projects the C300 is being used on, the SCARLET workflow is too complicated and DATA heavy for productions and for jobs that are ready and willing to deal with RED workflow, they just go with EPICS for the framerate option. How complicated would it be to bottleneck the the information off the sensor down to 1080p? I'm not even asking for ProRes, it could be R3D file based, but much smaller file sizes and very quick transcoding, perhaps without the REDROCKET. In my option, this is what would make the SCARLET viable again. An actual usable camera, rather than the bastard brother to the EPIC that doesn't seem to a have a solid place in the market.
 
If I wanted to record 1080, I would've bought a C300...
 
Hi Shane. I'm guessing you haven't had much experience around the RED cameras or workflow. It's actually not complicated at all. You can't have downscaled footage and have RAW. It just isn't possible with any camera. If you want 1080 scaled down, just use an external recorder.


Shane Duckworth said:
I'm posting this so that the higher ups at RED might answer and/or start to think about why this option doesn't exist.

Why does the Scarlet not have an option to Record 1080p WITHOUT cropping the sensor. If RED truly wanted a camera that could compete with the C300, it should make the the SCARLET have the ability to record 1080p by bottle necking the info, rather than a cropping sensor . Additionally, it should be able to record at to 60fps in that mood, if not higher. For the type of work and projects the C300 is being used on, the SCARLET workflow is too complicated and DATA heavy for productions and for jobs that are ready and willing to deal with RED workflow, they just go with EPICS for the framerate option. How complicated would it be to bottleneck the the information off the sensor down to 1080p? I'm not even asking for ProRes, it could be R3D file based, but much smaller file sizes and very quick transcoding, perhaps without the REDROCKET. In my option, this is what would make the SCARLET viable again. An actual usable camera, rather than the bastard brother to the EPIC that doesn't seem to a have a solid place in the market.
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Whack an external recorder on the scarlet and you have a simple and effective RAW and Pro Res workflow for 1080p. Or you can have just the Pro Res, or just the Raw.

With CS6 and FCPX however a RAW workflow is very simple for many projects especially those light on effects. FCPX will even produce proxys in the background, so you can start the edit while its doing that and by the time things are complex enough for FCP to struggle with the project the proxies should be ready and a simple couple of clicks will drop the proxies in (much easier than most relinking) and when its ready for gradeing another couple will bring the r3ds back for XML creation.

Red are also producing not one but two different modules with pro res capabilities.

All this aside it will still on some jobs not be as suited as the C300. And if that sort of work is all a person does then the C300 is the best camera for that person.
 
And as I recently found out with my EPIC, as external recorders can't record high frame rates. Plug the external recorder in to your RED ca,era after the shoot and hit playback. 1080 slowmo prores (or other ) in real time without a rocket. A little drop in quality compared to a rocket, but for quick turnaround jobs, usually more than good enough if they want 1080
 
Actually Bob, I have worked with RED quite a bit. I own a SCARLET and am a union AC/DIT. My problem is that the SCARLET's 4k capacity isn't always what a production company wants and they are the ones who decide if they like the RED workflow or not. Plus, when 4k is required for a project the EPIC is so cheap now, that the market is flooded with them, pushing out the SCARLET. So, the SCARLET needs to compete with something, in some market and the 4K market is full. EPICs are dramatically cheaper, and now the F5 and F55 are really going to make the SCARLET obsolete. If the SCARLET is going to be a viable camera again it needs to compete with the C300 and not the other 4k cameras. A Scarlet that can do 1080p at 60fps or higher and still has the option for 4k on wide shots or VFX is a damn good camera. But in it's current state, its the bastard brother to the EPIC and has no real market, other than a backup body or B cam on an EPIC film production. As far as commercial markets go, the SCARLET is being left behind. The REDONE is more viable than the SCARLET and its half the cost. So, yes an option to record 1080, is a good thing. And why should I have to buy an external recorder? I thought I bought a RED camera.
 
Also Bob, I wasn't saying both at the same time, but rather an option of just straight 1080. Also Bob the RED workflow is more complicated than let's ALEXA, C300 or even SONY. It requires transcoding and a rocket and various steps other camera system don't need. I get for VFX shots having 4 or 5K is great, but for a regular commercial gig, simpler is better. Why does the industry have to reinvent the wheel around a camera system?
 
Shane Duckworth said:
Also Bob, I wasn't saying both at the same time, but rather an option of just straight 1080. Also Bob the RED workflow is more complicated than let's ALEXA, C300 or even SONY. It requires transcoding and a rocket and various steps other camera system don't need. I get for VFX shots having 4 or 5K is great, but for a regular commercial gig, simpler is better. Why does the industry have to reinvent the wheel around a camera system?
Click to expand...

I edit and grade all my stuff without a rocket editing raw in premiere. No transcodes. Its really not as bad as people make it out to be. Curious why you went the Scarlet route if you feel you dont need most of the things that make it the camera it is, 4K, RAW etc?
 
Well Carlos,
When I was in the market for a camera the C300 and the SCARLET were being announced. For my taste the C300 wasn't camera enough, with 8bit color and having to choose between EF or PL mount. The SCARLET seemed like you could dress it up or dress it down, depending on the project. But what I've found is that the SCARLET is really just in a middle grey area, not being able to dress down or up enough to be that viable of a camera. And since the Dragon is out of the question, why not dress it down a bit and have it compete with the camera it was released to compete with, the C300.
 
Shane - you may have a ton of experience working with RED but it would seem you don't have all that much exposure to the discussion that RED propagates here on REDuser. While, as a Scarlet owner, I don't agree with your assessment of Scarlet's place in the food chain, more importantly, there are some things RED has said they would never do; line skipping is one of them. So, rule out any form of "cheating" on acquiring the 1080 image. As for downscaling in the camera, my guess is it would take much more processing power and thus negate the potential for doing high frame rates and downscaling. So, you are back to a beautiful downscale in post.

And, I'll go on record (before the potential flood of other posts) to suggest that your characterization of RED's workflow as "complicated" is simply overblown.

Finally, as Bob alluded, the power of RED is in REDCode and the raw workflow is precisely why many (including myself) have chosen RED over those other guys.
 
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I am planning on switching to Premiere for my own projects, but in the market place (at least in NY), production companies and post houses are either RED friendly or not. But, like I said in an earlier post, EPICs are so cheap now the market is flooded and those RED friendly companies just shoot EPIC. The SCARLET market does not seem to exist, at least in the mid to high level commercials shooting in NY, which is where I make my living. Though for the mid level stuff, the C300 is viable and used, a lot. The high level is almost always ALEXA (which I would have bought if I had 80 grand) or EPIC. I have not seen a good niche for the SCARLET. So, I'm bitter and I wish it could compete with the C300 and be simple enough for companies who don't use RED, to look at it as an option for quick and easy with the systems they already use.
 
I get the RAW is great and the ability to resize and color correct is awesome, but it is an extra step. For small to mid sized commercial and promo productions, that extra step is seen as a hassle and as extra $. I believe the SCARLET was intended for that market, which is why it was announced on the same day as the C300, but it doesn't really fit that market. It needs to be simpler to fit into that market. Usable with the pre-existing workflow of that market. And yes, it may be better to use the R3D files natively with Premiere, but tell that to a Post House with 100,000 dollars invested into an AVID workflow.
 
The other awesome thing you should try is using an external recorder and enabling look-around, you actually net out with your Scarlet delivering you your 1080p feed with EPIC 5K sensor size at 24 or 30p.
 
I am a little confused about one thing: you seem to be saying that the RED market is all Epic and that there is no place for Scarlet because it is just to easy to acquire an Epic. So, since the difference is only about $10K, why not just get an Epic and be done with it? Sounds like you could pay for it in a few weeks at worst. :huh:
 
Actually Terry, that very plan is on the table. Was waiting to see what would happen with the Dragon. Then at the end of the year, with announcement that the Scarlet would not get that upgrade, I weighed my options. RED made sure to trap it's market by dropping the prices so much, it would make it very painful to sell your RED and jump on the SONY train. So with 20 grand invested in RED accessories and media, I will probably buy an EPIC body and dump my SCARLET. Doesn't mean I can't be a little bitter and think of ways to improve a system I think is flawed. Plus, I'm waiting to see if the trade in deal is sweet enough from RED or take a hit on my SCARLET body in a private sale. Thoughts on that?
 
I'd argue that when the client doesn't care what camera you're using (which I obviously prefer) 4k/raw is generally overkill and you are not getting paid extra for it (for it's superior quality or for it's longer workflow/transcoding). Hence the C300 use that Shane is referring to.

That said, if jobs are really being turned away because the potential clients are opting for a lower-standard (8-bit, baked 1080p h264, which generally still needs to get transcoded to prores/dnxhd before going to the edit-bay anyway), get an offboard recorder and tell them you can deliever pristine prores/dnxhd in log at the end of the day/realtime... You can get a BM HyperShuttle for $500 or a Pix240 for $2500 (with fullsize XLRs and SD pre-amps... something that those types of clients would appreciate anyway), and essentially have a pseudo-Alexa for the price of a C300... In fact, you wouldn't be stretching the truth too far if you pitched your kit that way...

Don't get me wrong, I dislike having to explain things to people who don't know (or care?)... I hate having to "sell" the system to people who have "heard problems with RED" when it's clearly superior to other offerings in the pricerange... but I don't hate it enough not to do it when I know I can offer something better to the client.

Shane Duckworth said:
Actually Terry, that very plan is on the table. Was waiting to see what would happen with the Dragon. Then at the end of the year, with announcement that the Scarlet would not get that upgrade, I weighed my options. RED made sure to trap it's market by dropping the prices so much, it would make it very painful to sell your RED and jump on the SONY train. So with 20 grand invested in RED accessories and media, I will probably buy an EPIC body and dump my SCARLET. Doesn't mean I can't be a little bitter and think of ways to improve a system I think is flawed. Plus, I'm waiting to see if the trade in deal is sweet enough from RED or take a hit on my SCARLET body in a private sale. Thoughts on that?
Click to expand...

Even though I'm sure they didn't intend for it to be like this, I completely understand this bitterness... But if you really feel that way, you should definitely bail out now and go to another system. There's not point dropping an additional ~$15-$20k (which is essentially the price of a new/shootable F5) just to get to Epic/Dragon (with trade-in or resale), when you know the workflow and system is going to be the same as your Scarlet (actually more demanding with 5k or 6k and higher FPS). Plus then you'll be competing with more established Epic users/rental houses and you'll fall into the same trap but with more expensive kit/overhead.
 
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I'm looking into that, thinking BM Shuttle or PIX 240. Thoughts?
 
Exactly Mike! Thank you for clarifying my plight. I'm getting an external recorder. Just wish my 30,000 dollar camera could do that natively.
 
Well, first, if my work was the same as yours, I'd do the Epic thing ASAP. Personally, I think the Dragon trade-in for Scarlet will cost about as much as buying an Epic and then upgrading it. That much just seems like rational thinking. Background - I have contended from the outset that RED never promised two levels of Dragon. Some thought there'd be Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon; RED never promised that. So, it is logical that to end up with (Epic) Dragon, you have to pay what it takes to get Epic, then do the upgrade). And, from what you said, with Dragon some time away, you'd probably make back your investment before Dragon is even available.

As far as the "hit" on a private sale, don't forget that RED also cut the price of the Epic by way more than the drop in Scarlet. A definite win for new Epic purchasers.

Personally, I would never move away from a raw workflow so that part of the discussion is simply gibberish to me. It's not hard, it's not painful, it's very flexible and powerful, and the results are too spectacular to ignore. I'd opt for educating my clients but, as people here on RU know, I can be pretty stubborn. :001_smile:

EDIT: One last thing - Epic will do your high frame rates at any rez, which is what your original post suggested you are seeking.
 
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