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Potential Epic Purchaser - with some queries

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Richard Kynaston

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Hi all,Having been a RedUser reader for the past few months, i'm a new member to the forum, so sincerest of apologies in advance if this is posted in the wrong place. I'm looking for some advice from those who have used RED camera's, specifically the Epic, and the answers to a few questions. I've been a fan of Epics since seeing one in use about 12 months ago, and love the DSMC idea.

I've been given a task of evaluating various options for filming several upcoming projects, two of which are long term and the footage will likely become archive, and one of which is for a UK broadcaster. The boss has given me the freedom to come up with any options that achieve our required outcome, as long as I can justify the benefits ... so to some extent cost is not an issue!


The key area's are the ability to film in the highest resolution possible, so the footage is usable in various standards for years to come, to have ENG run-and-gun style options, also being able to get Apple Prores HQ footage in minimum of 100Mb/s, 4:2:2 (4:4:4 would be ideal) 10-bit colour with 24-bit audio (either 2 or 4 channel), as one of our clients has a fast (same day on occasions!) turnaround requirement. There is also a requirement for high resolution stills. We're running on a 10Gigabit NAS with around 1PB of storage space, so storage space is not a major issue for us - although the RED RAW and master audio files will get archived off to LTO tape. But above all, like all photographers, we need to have the best possible video and audio quality, with realistic real-life colours, that will stand being used in larger format in the future.


So I'm looking at a Red Epic X filming to 256GB RedMags for either 4K HD or 5K video, I presume there's no ability to natively use off-the-shelf SSDs for recording? The camera would potentially be docked via SDI to a PIX240i for the Prores transcode. It would need to run on Anton-Bauer Diopic 90 or 160 batteries as we have loads of these already. The idea is to run this set-up with Fujinon 18-85mm or 85-300mm Premier PL lenses, the latter for longer-distance work, as there is a need for powered zoom. While I have another non-RED option, that also involves a separate photographer with a Nikon D800 + lenses for some shoots on account of needing hires stills, my idea with RED is that the ability to frame grab on RED with a high enough quality should replace that need, hence offsetting the cost a bit.


So my main questions, which im hoping some of you guys may be able to chip in with the pros/cons (please feel free to add any real life experience if you've used any of the above kit - or suggest other ways)


1. Has anyone used Anton Bauer Diopic batteries with an Epic? If so, whats the running time like?
2. With the proposed Dragon sensor upgrade, would the above lenses still work with 6K - or are there any other ENG lens options that would be better?
3. Colour processing - Is it necessary to use RedCine for processing or can DiVinci or Apple Color handle Red RAW?
4. I'm seeing a number of issues/negative comments about audio quality on Epic X? We're used to using Schoeps microphones on the current Sony HD equipment, and would use them on the Epic too, I'm assuming that we're going to be best off with something like the SoundDevices 744 or 788T-SSD recorder, probably with a feed to an A-box on the EPIC? Is there anyway of mounting one of these or is a bag job? Can anyone confirm that the EPIC can trigger the record on this device, and output a timecode (or does the TC go better in the other direction?). Also a significant amount of our filming with the Epic will be done outside, possibly in windy conditions - any mic recommendations? We're looking at Schoeps CMIT Shotguns.
5. After processing in RedCine what codec do you guys use to then edit in? We use Final Cut Pro software on high powered Mac Pros, so i'm assuming Prores 442 HQ or do you stay with RedCine and bring the RAW into FCPX?
6. With the red RAW method of recording, how does the quality of a single frame JPG compare with a DSLR image - and do the the single frame RED jpgs natively come out at 72dpi or 300dpi?
7. (Last one promise!) Has anyone ever mounted (or heard of) a Red Epic X being mounted in a gyro-stablized unit (like Cineflex) for use with a Helicopter?


Sorry, I know there's a lot there, but I'd welcome any help/pointers/suggestions. I think if I can get this nailed then we'll have one or possibly two RED EPICs to play with! Thanks in advance for your help, patience and time for those guys who are still with me!


Cheers
Richard
 
3. Many programs support r3ds natively. DaVinci and all Adobe video software do. 4. I love the audio quality on our Epic. But if you want you can use a separate audio device or add the Pro IO Module both are good options. 5. Don't transcode, keep it raw the whole way. 6. I have seen some great comparisons between dslr stills and Epic, many comparisons to be found on this forum. However the biggest problem with simultaneous stills and video is the shutter issue. However you can shoot HDRx which will limit your compression some, but this will allow you to shoot 2 separate streams of video at different shutter speeds. I believe they are 72dpi. Many people have mounted the Epic to aerial gyros. Hope this helps!
 
Richard Kynaston said:


1. Has anyone used Anton Bauer Diopic batteries with an Epic? If so, whats the running time like?
2. With the proposed Dragon sensor upgrade, would the above lenses still work with 6K - or are there any other ENG lens options that would be better?
3. Colour processing - Is it necessary to use RedCine for processing or can DiVinci or Apple Color handle Red RAW?
4. I'm seeing a number of issues/negative comments about audio quality on Epic X? We're used to using Schoeps microphones on the current Sony HD equipment, and would use them on the Epic too, I'm assuming that we're going to be best off with something like the SoundDevices 744 or 788T-SSD recorder, probably with a feed to an A-box on the EPIC? Is there anyway of mounting one of these or is a bag job? Can anyone confirm that the EPIC can trigger the record on this device, and output a timecode (or does the TC go better in the other direction?). Also a significant amount of our filming with the Epic will be done outside, possibly in windy conditions - any mic recommendations? We're looking at Schoeps CMIT Shotguns.
5. After processing in RedCine what codec do you guys use to then edit in? We use Final Cut Pro software on high powered Mac Pros, so i'm assuming Prores 442 HQ or do you stay with RedCine and bring the RAW into FCPX?
6. With the red RAW method of recording, how does the quality of a single frame JPG compare with a DSLR image - and do the the single frame RED jpgs natively come out at 72dpi or 300dpi?
7. (Last one promise!) Has anyone ever mounted (or heard of) a Red Epic X being mounted in a gyro-stablized unit (like Cineflex) for use with a Helicopter?
Click to expand...

1: I use Anton Bauer. it runs about 60-70min per 90W, so a 160 whr battery will run the camera and accessories for about 2 hours.

2: The only lenses guaranteed to work with Dragon are the Full frame lenses. CP2's, Zeiss LW zooms, Canon Primes, K35's and Canon EOS L series lenses. Most cine wides wont cover. That said i Have a Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 and it covers 5K FF quite well. Remeber you can always just record 5K on the Dragon, and get guaranteed S35 coverage for all PL lenses.

3: RCX, DaVinci resolve, Scratch will all process R3D. Apple color i dont believe does.

4:Time code works better when the Epic is receiving. The onboard Audio is fine. but nothing beats a dedicated recorder.

5: Premiere editors tend to keep it in R3d and FCPX will edit R3D natively. Most of the time we use a ProRes/DNXHD offline.

6: The single frames can be captured either as R3D RAW stills, or TIFF files. You would have to make them Jpeg later. @ 3:1-6:1 compression the still image quality is wonderful.

7: Yes, Looks awesome.
 
Guys,
Thanks for your comments and replies. All very helpful. Interesting to read that DaVinci can process R3D files.


Timur Civan said:
The only lenses guaranteed to work with Dragon are the Full frame lenses. CP2's, Zeiss LW zooms, Canon Primes, K35's and Canon EOS L series lenses. Most cine wides wont cover. That said i Have a Fujinon Cabrio 19-90 and it covers 5K FF quite well. Remeber you can always just record 5K on the Dragon, and get guaranteed S35 coverage for all PL .
Click to expand...

Timur, you say the Cabrio covers 5K FF quiet well. Do I take it that there is some vignette or non coverage at the wide angle? I presume Nikon full frames would work with 6K as well as Canon L lenses then?

cheers
Rich
 
4. use the audio from the PIX240 (after going through a mixer). Use epic audio only as a scratch track
The use of the pix will also give you edit ready files with the same filename and timecode so do your edit with these files and then online through resolve.
As Timur said, let the pix or other recorder feed the epic the timecode.
 
4) I endorse the A-box very highly. Consider it integral to any Epic audio use.

However, the camera itself tops out at just OK for most sound applications..
If the sound content is for it's informative value, then *most* of the time, it'll be ok.
If you want it for dramatic delivery, I can't endorse it.
Early Epics were known to have audio flaws from time to time, so I still suggest at least a transcription grade audio backup (handheld style non tc recorder or perhaps a mic feeding your Pix, or ki-pro, or what have you... Hyperdeck Shuttle and Atomos boxes not good for audio backup)

The mics you suggest are excellent. CMIT is a lovely general purpose shotgun.. consider pairing it with a serious wind screen Rycote is great, Cinela even better (because it's lighter).
I like using denecke or ambient syncboxes always on the camera as a tc source. I can use a 788t as a tethered tc source, with good results. I don't know if you need tri level sync for your jobs, but if you don't, then you can use the mid priced tc boxes. Timecode Buddy is a nice system as well.

Even with my double system bias, I have been able to use sound on some short doc projects from the camera.
 
Brodie Gwilliam said:
yes any nikon/canon full frame lenses should cover dragon 6k no problem
Click to expand...


Thanks Brodie. That's great to know. We have a number of f2.8 Nikkor FX lenses which are used with our D800 for stills work, so good to know they'd work. Do you happen to know if, for example the 70-200 gives 70-200 on the Epic or is there a crop factor?




Shane Kelly said:
4. use the audio from the PIX240 (after going through a mixer). Use epic audio only as a scratch track
The use of the pix will also give you edit ready files with the same filename and timecode so do your edit with these files and then online through resolve.
As Timur said, let the pix or other recorder feed the epic the timecode.
Click to expand...

Shane, many thanks. I hadn't realised the PIX could pick up file name detail from the Epic, that's really useful for later link. Thanks for the heads up on that. We currently use CatDV for our archiving and asset management, so taking the ProRes files off the PIX would be ideal for keeping that operation going.

Richard
 
Christopher Mills said:
4) I endorse the A-box very highly. Consider it integral to any Epic audio use.

However, the camera itself tops out at just OK for most sound applications..
If the sound content is for it's informative value, then *most* of the time, it'll be ok.
If you want it for dramatic delivery, I can't endorse it.
Early Epics were known to have audio flaws from time to time, so I still suggest at least a transcription grade audio backup (handheld style non tc recorder or perhaps a mic feeding your Pix, or ki-pro, or what have you... Hyperdeck Shuttle and Atomos boxes not good for audio backup)

The mics you suggest are excellent. CMIT is a lovely general purpose shotgun.. consider pairing it with a serious wind screen Rycote is great, Cinela even better (because it's lighter).
I like using denecke or ambient syncboxes always on the camera as a tc source. I can use a 788t as a tethered tc source, with good results. I don't know if you need tri level sync for your jobs, but if you don't, then you can use the mid priced tc boxes. Timecode Buddy is a nice system as well.

Even with my double system bias, I have been able to use sound on some short doc projects from the camera.
Click to expand...

Thanks for you comments and time. We're big believers in quality across the board, and sound is just as important as picture, so I'm definitely now thinking that sound needs to be external to the Epic. Where we have just one or two mics, I'm wondering if the 788T is necessary, or whether the mics could just be plugged directly into the PIX? Do you know if it records two separate tracks, or just one? Our filming may at times be ENG style with a one man crew, so I'm keen to keep the amount of equipment down!

We are used to filming indoor short scenes and interviews, but some of this work will need outdoor hillside style shots which need to pick up sound and avoid wind noise - are the Rycote wind screens and Schoeos CMIT mics the best combination? Obviously we need the audio quality to match the picture where possible.

Could we take an external TC source, such as any of those you mention, and feed the Epic, 788T AND PIX? Or is that getting too complicated and introducing possible problems?

Cheers
Richard
 
Richard Kynaston said:
Andy,
Thats really useful, thanks. Despite a few weeks wading through this forum (and others!) I'd not picked that up for some reason.

Cheers,
Richard
Click to expand...

No problem - Phil's put together a great thread & it's useful for potential users/buyers :)
 
Yes, the CMIT with a full Rycote blimp is near top of the line for exterior sound capture.
The 788T has a very stable clock built in. It can be your master clock for your production.
You at least need to jam the Epic on every reboot, power change, and at mid day break, if you don't leave a continuous jamming solution in place.
I have not tried to use the Pix as either a stand alone tc source or as the audio recorder. I am sure the audio channels sound good enough to please most clients.
And in many productions with a 788, we use the 788 to jam a lockit box, and then attach that to the Epic.. which then embeds that code in the sdi feed to the Pix.. very proven, very stable...
Ambient makes a similar box to the lockit.. equally good..
 
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