Arri Alexa internal raw recording - finally

[Adrian Jebef]

Approximately how much uncompressed ARRIRAW 4k footage could you fit on one of their 512gb drives? Not that it's an option, but if it was...

I'm gonna guess 25min.

How much uncompressed EPIC 5K footage can you fit on a 256GB RedMag?

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I'm gonna guess 25min.

How much uncompressed EPIC 5K footage can you fit on a 256GB RedMag?

Depends on how much compression you use. There is no uncompressed. Best quality 5k is like 30 minutes on a 256GB mag. 4k would be like 50 minutes.

 

[Mike P.]

I think worrying about how much can fit on each card isn't as relevant as how much each card costs... That is to say, if they're 512gb "mags" hold an anaemic 12mins, but only cost $100 each (I know, I know) it'd still be a better proposition to be in than one "48min/256gig mag" costing $2500, right? It's just going to be a bit of a storage nightmare on the backend...

The irony is, roadblocks like that, ones that make it difficult/impossible to do post from your laptop, means that anything shot with those cameras will go through as proper/professional post pipeline which will only make the camera look even better. Basically the exact opposite of what we're seeing with most Scarlet shoots.

 

[Max M.]

Arri is stepping up their game and i hope red starts improving the next points to keep up:

- Both prores and Raw recording in camera ( i know the meizler module will do it, but why not just in camera without it...?) or bring out a small prores module, but give us that option, where waiting for nearly 2 years for it now...
- Silent fan, Red should really understand how important this is. I wouldn't care if the camera would grow a few inches to include a silent fan, it's worth it. The fan noise of the epic sucks.
- Much better viewfinder (The OLED bomb evf is step forward, but doesn't come close to joy of watching through an alexa viewfinder)
- Internal ND's (makes run and gun shooting 100% easier)

Red is king is resolution, but a lot of people are not yet interested in higher than 2K resolution. I think red is way to much focussed on resolution and small camera size, and way to less on the working experience with the camera, where arri puts alot of it's effort in making it a ergonomic easy simple working system. An epic needs quite a load of 3rd party accessory to make it work. Sony nailed it with the F5 also (multiple sdi outputs, better ergonomic design, built in nd's, different codec options) Now its time for red to step up on the other than resolution issues.

I like the epic, it works great, but other camera's are getting better and better, and besides the image quality the working experience is half of the camera choice (thats why the c300 works great and is used alot now, it's a joy to shoot with)
Red is finally being challenged and i hope they come with a good response

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Arri is stepping up their game and i hope red starts improving the next points to keep up:

- Both prores and Raw recording in camera ( i know the meizler module will do it, but why not just in camera without it...?) or bring out a small prores module, but give us that option, where waiting for nearly 2 years for it now...
- Silent fan, Red should really understand how important this is. I wouldn't care if the camera would grow a few inches to include a silent fan, it's worth it. The fan noise of the epic sucks.
- Much better viewfinder (The OLED bomb evf is step forward, but doesn't come close to joy of watching through an alexa viewfinder)
- Internal ND's (makes run and gun shooting 100% easier)

Red is king is resolution, but a lot of people are not yet interested in higher than 2K resolution. I think red is way to much focussed on resolution and small camera size, and way to less on the working experience with the camera, where arri puts alot of it's effort in making it a ergonomic easy simple working system. An epic needs quite a load of 3rd party accessory to make it work. Sony nailed it with the F5 also (multiple sdi outputs, better ergonomic design, built in nd's, different codec options) Now its time for red to step up on the other than resolution issues.

I like the epic, it works great, but other camera's are getting better and better, and besides the image quality the working experience is half of the camera choice (thats why the c300 works great and is used alot now, it's a joy to shoot with)
Red is finally being challenged and i hope they come with a good response

Very good points Max!!!!

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I think worrying about how much can fit on each card isn't as relevant as how much each card costs...

I'm more interested in what the storage requirements would be if they offered uncompressed 4k raw. I'm starting to think what is holding Arri back is they haven't found a way to do 4k (let along 5k or 6k) that can compete with REDCODE without infringing on RED's patent. Apparently neither could Sony, but they decided to just do it anyways and let the courts sort it out.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

I'm more interested in what the storage requirements would be if they offered uncompressed 4k raw. I'm starting to think what is holding Arri back is they haven't found a way to do 4k (let along 5k or 6k) that can compete with REDCODE without infringing on RED's patent. Apparently neither could Sony, but they decided to just do it anyways and let the courts sort it out.

There is no 4K ALEXA because there has been no immediate need for one (according to ARRI) though this could change in the next 12-24 months.

REDCODE is just a "raw" compression codec. It isn't the holy grail. In fact, it only gets you half the way there. From a quality standpoint it would be best uncompressed like ARRIRAW.

And just to be clear, lawsuits don't hold anyone back. They're usually engineered to produce money and stall competing products. Patent law in the US has taken a turn for the absurd over the past decade. It's too bad RED has decided it's in every REDUSER's interest to litigate...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

There is no 4K ALEXA because there has been no immediate need for one (according to ARRI) though this could change in the next 12-24 months.

REDCODE is just a "raw" compression codec. It isn't the holy grail. In fact, it only gets you half the way there. From a quality standpoint it would be best uncompressed like ARRIRAW.

And just to be clear, lawsuits don't hold anyone back. They're usually engineered to produce money and stall competing products. Patent law in the US has taken a turn for the absurd over the past decade. It's too bad RED has decided it's in every REDUSER's interest to litigate...

Actually, without saying much, I'm not sure that's true. I believe both Arri and DPs who choose to shoot with Alexa are interested in the option of higher resolution.

As for REDCODE, it's the single biggest reason we are all having a discussion on this site right now. Without it, I don't believe RED gets off the ground with the camera. As far as it being the best quality, that's certainly a debatable issue. Either way, it's hard to knock it's impact.

I know nothing about patent law and will continue to abstain from that conversation in regards to RED's lawsuits against other companies.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Actually, without saying much, I'm not sure that's true. I believe both Arri and DPs who choose to shoot with Alexa are interested in the option of higher resolution.

As for REDCODE, it's the single biggest reason we are all having a discussion on this site right now. Without it, I don't believe RED gets off the ground with the camera. As far as it being the best quality, that's certainly a debatable issue. Either way, it's hard to knock it's impact.

I know nothing about patent law and will continue to abstain from that conversation in regards to RED's lawsuits against other companies.

Yes, there are many at all levels of the production chain that want/need higher resolution. But, so far, the "official" from ARRI is that a 2K camera/workflow/master is still the preferable way to go (for now). And the ALEXA does increase usable resolution when you shoot ARRIRAW and/or 4:3.

Having the ability to compress and record "raw" motion data allows you to do away with all of the processing/imaging steps at the camera end. This pushes these steps into Post and is probably a big reason RED was able to enter the market at their price-point. I don't see any genius in a compressed "raw" codec. To me it's a double-edged sword. Sure you get "raw" capture and good compression to cut down file-sizes but you also get to deal with debayering/processing down the pipe. For some projects this is a great setup, for others, not so much. I'm not trying to knock REDCODE's "impact". I think it's a great and sometimes appropriate choice. Personally, I find working/mastering in a Log video space preferable over a proprietary RAW workflow. But that's just me...

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I'm gonna guess 25min.

Isn't 4k 4 times the data as 2k? Well, ok we're talking 2.8k, but either way I think you'd get less than that.

Anyone done the math on this?

I don't see any genius in a compressed "raw" codec.

Without it I don't see how RED could have released the RED ONE, Epic or Scarlet successfully. Apparently Sony likes the idea as well since they do this also.

How much would a memory card that could handle recording 4k raw at 120fps cost? Do any even exist? How about 5k? 6k? Is an external RAID array your only option if you don't used a compressed raw format? You also need much faster drives for editing. With REDCODE you literally edit on a laptop natively.

To me it's a double-edged sword. Sure you get "raw" capture and good compression to cut down file-sizes but you also get to deal with debayering/processing down the pipe. For some projects this is a great setup, for others, not so much. I'm not trying to knock REDCODE's "impact". I think it's a great and sometimes appropriate choice. Personally, I find working/mastering in a Log video space preferable over a proprietary RAW workflow. But that's just me...

With the Meizler module you can go either way now. I do believe another module is in the works that only does transcodes to ProRes/DNxHD.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, there are many at all levels of the production chain that want/need higher resolution. But, so far, the "official" from ARRI is that a 2K camera/workflow/master is still the preferable way to go (for now). And the ALEXA does increase usable resolution when you shoot ARRIRAW and/or 4:3.

Having the ability to compress and record "raw" motion data allows you to do away with all of the processing/imaging steps at the camera end. This pushes these steps into Post and is probably a big reason RED was able to enter the market at their price-point. I don't see any genius in a compressed "raw" codec. To me it's a double-edged sword. Sure you get "raw" capture and good compression to cut down file-sizes but you also get to deal with debayering/processing down the pipe. For some projects this is a great setup, for others, not so much. I'm not trying to knock REDCODE's "impact". I think it's a great and sometimes appropriate choice. Personally, I find working/mastering in a Log video space preferable over a proprietary RAW workflow. But that's just me...

Arri has actually tripped over themselves a few times in regards to what is preferable, even in their own documentation. However, I don't necessarily hold it against them as there are some legitimate reasons why they are at the resolution they are currently at.

If I remember correctly, way back at the beginning of the Red One design phase, Jim asked if people would be willing to pay for an uncompressed option. I believe they even did some blind tests. No one took Jim up on his offer as far as I know. It's been a few years, so I can't recall the exact implementation they were proposing but I do remember that it was discussed. Obviously, in 2013 we are talking about better data storage solutions that make uncompressed video a lot less daunting, but certainly not easy to do at 4K or higher.

 

[Robert Horwell]

XR module upgrade 9850 Euros
XR drives 2950 Euros each
XR drive bundle (x4) 10900 Euros

Drives are 512gb.