Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Just got Avid 6, to transcode or not to transcode...

James_Mills

James_Mills

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
389
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
Los Angeles
Hey, all. I'm excited to say that I just got Avid 6 and the RED plugins are working awesomely. The ability to ama link RED files directly seemed like a far distant dream when I first started using Avid and RED a few months ago, so I'm super stoked about it.

But then it got me thinking... if I have to transcode the footage out of REDCineX first anyways, is there any real advantage to using the AMA plugin? Could I just edit from AMA and then link it back to REDCine and DaVinci from there?

I guess I'm just asking what are your guys' favorite routes with AVID 6, DaVinci, and RedCine? Should I transcode out of RedCine first like I used to and then go to Avid and then to DaVinci?

Any inputs would be awesome, thanks.
 
I would recommend a transcode based workflow when working with Red and Avid. AMA support is very cool, but it does have limitations. Depending on your system, the media drives, the amount of footage you have, and the length of your timeline, AMA can start to struggle with maintaining real time playback. Obviously, a NLE without real time playback isn't very useful, which is why the facility I work in is still doing transcodes when working with Avid.

In my experience, Avid is the best NLE for cutting, but it does leave much to be desired in terms of technical support behind the scenes.
 
To edit files natively with AMA or transcode is always a heated debate to which there is no one single answer. So many dependencies as Eric pointed out. In addition: speed of drive, connection, expected number of streams, layers, effects, multicam or not, etc. To me, fluidity of picture and sound while editing is paramount to the experience so I always transcode to a low data rate like DNxHD 36, then go back as needed for conform. But if the planets all align and AMA works, then you can go back to RCXPro or Resolve via EDL. Just note that AMA likes to add the _001 for spanned files, so in Resolve you need to use the custom syntax to properly reference the REEL for conform.

Michael
 
When you fire up your project in AVID and the AMA links no longer link to anything and you're entire job is OFFLINE and you're on a deadline.......you WILL transcode next time.
:)
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
When you fire up your project in AVID and the AMA links no longer link to anything and you're entire job is OFFLINE and you're on a deadline.......you WILL transcode next time.
:)
Click to expand...

This has happened to me two different times with 5D footage, hence why I started transcoding proxies of it a long time ago. Sad to hear that has problem hasn't changed.

Thanks guys, I'ma stick with my old workflow set up that MichaelP helped me figure out.
 
I would def not work from AMA. Your asking for trouble. Transcoding first is smart.

Another way to go is to AMA the R3D's, and then transcode them directly into your Avid by using the CONSOLIDATE/TRANSCODE function. When we are in a rush, that's how we make our DNX35 proxies. We fire up the Avid and transcode the shoot overnight, bypassing RCX entirely. You can't do a one light, but it works really well in a pinch.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I would def not work from AMA. Your asking for trouble. Transcoding first is smart.

Another way to go is to AMA the R3D's, and then transcode them directly into your Avid by using the CONSOLIDATE/TRANSCODE function. When we are in a rush, that's how we make our DNX35 proxies. We fire up the Avid and transcode the shoot overnight, bypassing RCX entirely. You can't do a one light, but it works really well in a pinch.
Click to expand...

This process works nicely, because you don't have to move the MXF files yourself. I work a lot with students, so sometimes this is much easier for them to understand if they're unfamiliar with Avid. These transcodes are also Rocket accelerated, which is nice. Honestly, if Avid would let you work with already transcoded material while it is processing the rest, it would be amazing.

Also, you can do a simple one-light touch up. If you right click on the material, there is an option: Set Source Settings. You can make tweaks to the color space / gamma (switch between RedGamma 2 and 3 for instance), as well as do minor saturation and contrast work.

EDIT: However, that one-light trick is sloooooow going compared to RCX, because I believe you can only do one clip at a time.
 
You can do multiple clips on source settings assuming you want to apply the same to all clips. You can also apple a single RMD to all selected clips via source settings. The transcode process works fairly well, especially for first timers. I tend to still use RXC because you have control over all the parameters, up to date with latest color science improvements, etc. AMA also wants to add the _001 for spanned file which makes some workflows a little more tedious as the filename itself works for relinking. In all cases for double system sound, I sync in Media Composer.


Michael
 
That Consolidate/Transcode process is the same I use for proxies with DSLR shoots. I didn't realize this works well for Red Footage too... what about doing that and then relinking it and then going back to RCX? Or is that more trouble than it's worth when you could just go to RedCineX first?

Also, when you guys say you can do quick touch ups (or you said "one light", a term I've never heard before), is that all in Avid as well? Where do you do this, in the transcode window? Or do you do it before you transcode it all? Or after you relink? And does this let you alter the native settings with native Red colors or is it like color correcting with Avid where Michael (at least I think it was Michael) told me it doesn't use the real Red colors to correct it or whatever?

My bad for that garbled mess, hope it makes sense...
 
Keep in mind that while the Source Settings does not give you control over all the color parameters, it does read the current state of the RMD file. So in RCX you can make all you choices and use AMA to link to the R3D and RMD and it will be applied. Be sure to use the latest AMA plug-in for R3D that supports ColorSpace 3. And you can start with AMA, transcode to DNxHD for an offline, and link you sequence back via AMA to the originl R3D to finilize at a higher DNxHD resolution or take the sequence to a different system for mastering, color correction should your program need to finish at 2K or higher or need deeper color correction tools than what you have in Media Composer or Symphony. The trad-off is convenience, speed, and amount of control. While more convenient to color correct directly in the NLE, the color correction tools in Media Composer are very basic compared to something like Resolve. Even Symphony is a limited subset of that toolset. But depending on your program needs, turnaround time and such, plenty of folk are more than happy with what is in the system.

What I was referring to in another thread, is once your media is in Media Composer or Symphony, you are working in a Rec.709 color space with video levels because these systems are built to be broadcast systems. So in preparing your R3D file - make sure you have all the information you need first, knowing that Rec.709 is where you will end up color correcting.


Michael
 
You're the man, michael. As always, you clarify things so eloquently.

I have one last question: if I go the route of RCX to AMA to Consolidate/Transcode to Relink, can I then get the sequence to Resolve Lite to edit with the Red colors as opposed to Avid's Rec.709 (and then finally back to Avid) like I can when I normally just transcode it out of RCX?
 
Yes. The advantage of setting the RMD in RCX first before AMA to the R3D is that the same RMD can be used by Resolve when you get to the conform stage. Once correction is done in Resolve, you will be making new Avid MXF media via a transcode, and that time will need to consider you're going back to a Rec.709.

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
While more convenient to color correct directly in the NLE, the color correction tools in Media Composer are very basic compared to something like Resolve.
Click to expand...

Unless you have the Baselight plugin installed in your NLE. That does take the options available when staying in the NLE to a whole other level!
 
That's true - unfortunately the Avid MC pipeline doesn't allow an effect (AVX in this case) access the original parameters of the source settings to the R3D. Not even Avid's color correction UI allows this which is where you want to have it. Only way is to access on the original master clip and is only for the entire clip, and not spans of shots as might be needed in certain situations. I love the baselight plug-in for the control it offers within the Media Composer and for the price difference between MC and Symphony, you get a lot more color correction for the buck. There is still the relational color correction feature in Symphony that is used as differentiation between the models, but that is something Avid could allow all AVX effects and plug-ins to use to great advantage and become more of a platform that trying to create everything themselves. My two cents. :)

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
That's true - unfortunately the Avid MC pipeline doesn't allow an effect (AVX in this case) access the original parameters of the source settings to the R3D. Not even Avid's color correction UI allows this which is where you want to have it. Only way is to access on the original master clip and is only for the entire clip, and not spans of shots as might be needed in certain situations. I love the baselight plug-in for the control it offers within the Media Composer and for the price difference between MC and Symphony, you get a lot more color correction for the buck. There is still the relational color correction feature in Symphony that is used as differentiation between the models, but that is something Avid could allow all AVX effects and plug-ins to use to great advantage and become more of a platform that trying to create everything themselves. My two cents. :)

Michael
Click to expand...
If they are able to somehow solve this, I'm there. That seems to me to be the big limitation right now when working with RED files and the Avid/Baselight route. Otherwise, I really like it. I need a more powerful machine to fully take advantage of it but it would really solve those quick turnaround jobs for me where a real colorist is not budgeted in unfortunately. They did good work with this plugin and I still use FCP 7 occasionally so to have both platforms under one license is really great. If getting access to the RAW on a per shot basis is not an issue, then doing a one light and transcoding to DNxHD175 or 220 with some room in the top and bottom for the grade is not a bad option either.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
If they are able to somehow solve this, I'm there.
Click to expand...

It's not so much an issue of solving, it's a matter of deciding that this is a strategy they would like to pursue. When there's a will, there's a way. That would be a shift in philosophy that may or may not happen. Perhaps NAB will tell. But beyond baselight, all VFX effects.


Michael
 
If Symphony/MC were combined, and allowed relation application of all AVX effects to work, that would be amazing. Really, for anyone who isn't trying to grade a whole show in a very short amount of time, the difference between Symphony and MC is basically zilch (unless you also have a Nitris, and then it's Zilch plus a tiny bit if you are reconfirming between 50 and 60 hz material)

But if all AVX plugins could be applied and change in the relational way Symphony's color correction tool does, then that would be a killer workflow for a large number of productions...
 
James_Mills said:
Can you please explain this? I'm not quite sure I understand...
Click to expand...

When color correcting in Resolve, none of the decisions made translate back as metadata - so correction such as power windows, blurs, secondary color correction, etc. all need to be "baked in" to the media, and this is done by rendering into the format you need for whatever downstream use you have for it. If for broadcast, then in Rec.709 color space in whatever codec format needed (in this case, DNxHD). If for theatrical, then perhaps XYZ color space and DPX, etc.

Michael
 
Craig Parkes said:
But if all AVX plugins could be applied and change in the relational way Symphony's color correction tool does, then that would be a killer workflow for a large number of productions...
Click to expand...


Certainly a proposal that is not new to Avid. A lot of what you suggest would be a fundamental shift in strategy and product line-up and it remains to be seen what that will be over the next 12-18 months. But from an architecture standpoint, everything is there to make it possible.


Michael
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top