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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony to launch 4K digital distribution network this summer, 'mastered in 4K' Blu-ray

Roger Valdes said:
It's a start i suppose...

Red can't deliver the 4k format to the consumer, Sony can.
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Think so? This isn't a beta/blu-ray format war if it's being delivered through the Internet. Do you expect other studios to distribute their films through Sony's network? Historically it's been more neutral third parties that have handled this, no? iTunes, Netflix, etc. A joint venture between several studios could work. Something like Hulu which is Fox, ABC/Disney and NBC/Universal, but Sony alone? I just don't see others coming on board. RED seems to be in the lead as far as technology goes. Their codec gives them a huge advantage. They also seem to have an actual plan and they are close to launching. If RED is able to secure a deal with a large studio or two then I think others will follow. I could see Warner Bros being an early partner. They have been finishing films in 4k for awhile now and I remember reading they are doing 4k scans of old 35mm films as well.
 
Please kill the optical disc media, or at least protect the important data by not allowing people to touch or scratch it...

The more the merrier, they backed the correct format last time (Blu Ray vs HDDVD) so who knows what could happen this time.
 
Stephen Matthews said:
The more the merrier, they backed the correct format last time (Blu Ray vs HDDVD) so who knows what could happen this time.
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Many would disagree there. Blu-Ray was the superior media as it offered 30% more capacity and double the data rate potential. Other than that, HD-DVD seemed a more natural progression of the disc format. As far as the video spec went -- it used all the same codecs to the point of authoring your video files for both formats was a one-and-done approach. Data rate caps for video were the same on both formats. The difference of the data formats themselves was the menu system and programmability options. Blu-Ray uses the highly proprietary and terribly inefficient BD-J Java API. HD-DVD was entirely open and XML based with HTML-5 support coming with the approved, but not yet implemented, upgrade. All players would have offered the upgrade via a free software update. Something Blu-Ray players have mostly not ever done -- Profile 2.0 spec a couple years back required most every player on the market to be replaced. At the time profile 2.0 spec was announced, there were only three upgradeable players on the market -- the Sony PS3, Sony S550 and the Denon model. The latter two mentioned there were both over $650 at the time.

Anyway, Studios were pretty divided as to which format to back. Sony swayed the industry in their favor with a three-pronged attack. First of all, Sony Entertainment holds a vast library that they would only publish on their disc format. Second, they offered subsidized disc production and publishing services to lower costs of distribution beyond what Toshiba and the HD-DVD camp could match. And finally, Sony outright bought off Disney, DreamWorks and MGM to get them to pledge exclusive support. MGM was firmly in the HD-DVD camp before that tipping point. Disney was uncommitted to either and on the fence. DreamWorks was refusing to take sides and had pledged to support both. That pay-off trifecta was the proverbial coffin lid slamming shut on HD-DVD. Coercive capitalism at its finest and Sony seemed quite proud of their achievement at the time.

Not too long before Blu-Ray was finalized and made ready to ship, Toshiba made what I thought was a best of both worlds compromise offer. They proposed that Blu-Ray would become the standard disc media and HD-DVD's open XML spec would be the data format. Disc media would retain the Blu-Ray moniker and video content delivered on it would still be labeled as HD-DVD. Sony would of course retain all royalties associated with the disc media, HD-DVD had no associated royalties or hidden costs. Sony refused any compromise and proceeded to crush the HD-DVD format. At the time, Sony had a big aversion to the whole open XML approach, they wanted their tiered royalty structure controlled by their proprietary BD-J system. ...With HD-DVD as the data format, any average Joe could have made complex interactive menus, games, etc.. and they wouldn't have been able to charge royalties on anything other than the physical disc and player tech. They wouldn't have an iron grip on the software API used to create the menu system, thus being able to have total control over which software can author BD titles.


Looking back on it, I'm still somewhat surprised that the industry as a whole went with Blu-Ray. All things considered HD-DVD offered all the same functionality in a more open spec, as far as video distribution was concerned. It was already available and would have saved the industry tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions of $$$ over the past 6.5 years in extortionist fees paid primarily to one company. It happened because Sony has deep pockets and could make a few of the key studios some irresistible offers. And because they controlled 20% of the market as far as popular films of the time were concerned.

Toshiba could have and should have put up a better fight. Their marketing sucked and their technical alliances were questionable, except for at the very end, but it was too little too late. They had an up-hill battle to fight even before Blu-Ray was released, people believed the forthcoming Blu-Ray was vastly superior, for no other reason than Sony said so. People believe Sony's marketing BS. It's an unexplained phenomenon in all segments of the electronics industry. And no matter how far off their promised abilities a product is when it finally releases, Sony is still praised for it. Every time I buy a Sony product, I feel like a battered housewife returning home to an abusive husband that keeps promising next time will be better and even more amazing.


Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree at this point the optical disc paradigm needs to just go away.
 
Stephen Matthews said:
Jeff you are correct, I should have said "backed the winning format"
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Anyway, there's a somewhat dirty, anti-Sony, summation of what happened. While what I said regarding pay-offs and everything else happened -- really, I've never seen a company so proud of buying off others the same way Sony was -- there are many out there who see it a different light. There were a lot of people cheering Sony on (because they're Sony, as if any other reason were needed) and a lot of people wanted to see HD-DVD terminated.

Hopefully RED is ready for the fight this time around. You can bet Sony isn't going to play nice and if they win, I am 95% sure they will not be offering the superior technology. In fact, the details starting to surface point to H.265 or similar derivative codec driving UHD/QFHD and 1080p container formats to be distributed via an expansion of their PlayStation network infrastructure.

RED also has steep competition coming from Roku. There's a very similar channel-based model there as compared to ODEMAX and providers on Roku like Vudu, Netflix and Amazon are talking 4K. Roku is showing UHD/4K prototype hardware at CES and lots of people are already declaring it -- and the hypothetical Sony/PlayStation4 player/distribution scheme as the next evolution for content distribution. Seriously, RED should have had a presence at CES and should be having their big REDRAY / ODEMAX announcement yesterday. Sundance is great for indie artist and feature film buzz, but no so much else. I usually admire RED's muted, but very effective approach to marketing. Very silent but deadly, ninja like approach. HOWEVER, I think they missed a key opportunity here to impregnate the minds of potential consumers. Other than prototype and what-if type hardware being shown, RED could have had a stack of real players showing real content and a big sign that said, "First, bitches!".
 
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I still have my HD-DVD Xbox 360 drive and a pile of unopened discs I bought after it went under in addition to my small collection of stuff I bought during the format wars. :blush: I also have over 800 Blu-Ray titles now, so I've moved on. I did like HD-DVD just fine except for those god damned hybrid flipper discs. Those things were never made right and whomever decided to push them as the standard for HD-DVD deserves a beating.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
(snip) I usually admire RED's muted, but very effective approach to marketing. Very silent but deadly, ninja like approach. HOWEVER, I think they missed a key opportunity here to impregnate the minds of potential consumers. Other than prototype and what-if type hardware being shown, RED could have had a stack of real players showing real content and a big sign that said, "First, bitches!".
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While I think Jeff is spot on, I'd wager there is a lot going on behind the scenes that RED had to consider in deciding how they want to "arrive" in the CE space.

I'd also note that while Sony's marketing shenanigans and mis-information is horrific, they have put more effort into real image quality metrics than most of their competitors the last few years. A strategy that is sadly hurting them in a marketplace that seems mostly interested in price and screen size, IQ be damned. Samsung in particular went for an over sharpened, over saturated look that pops on a showroom floor but often has little fidelity to the creators vision.

While I'm not condoning Sony's double speak at least they have a strong motivation to promote 4K/UHD in hopes of saving their TV division. It could be argued that if they wait until proper UHD distribution channels are in play to make their move they might be toast. Watching a bully like Sony get their just desserts in Chapter 11 might be delicious schadenfreude for a lot of us, not just Jeff ;-), it would still be a blow to the timeline for 4K/UHD adoption. Not only would a highly visible advocate be lost but others in the space might point to Sony's demise as proof that the marketplace just isn't ready for or interested in 4K/UHD.

FWIW the CE companies are highly motivated to promote anything that might speed consumer replacement cycles and encourage spending on high ticket devices, but content creators and distributors are wary of the costs. For years media conglomerates were enamored with the potential new revenue of new formats that would lead consumers to replace their libraries of physical media - CDs of the same titles they had already bought on vinyl, DVDs/VHS, etc. With online distribution models there is some ability to charge a premium for higher quality versions of desired media content, but not much, especially when the bandwidth limitations typically lead to over compressed deliverables reaching consumers anyway thus negating genuine efforts to provide better IQ at the source.

This brings me back full circle to the key conundrum in all this: as long as the vast majority of the public is willing to shell out for horribly over compressed (and often re-compressed multiple times prior to final distribution) MPEG-2 material where's the bottom line motivation to make it better? I would argue that one of the reasons that people are happy to buy a Vizio for half the price of a similar Sony is that the better display only makes the MPEG-2 artifacting easier to see.

Cheers - #19
 
the reduser should be happy that a known company is pushing the 4k marketing term not discouraging or making negative comments about the quality without actually seeing the product. again this reinforces the negative stereotype in the industry about red users.

at the end of the day you have conversations about 4k production. who has 4k cameras?

I don't get this attitude.

establish yourself in the 4k marketplace before the f5 and f55 start competing for your business.
 
Agreed, Blair, there is most definitely a lot of behind the scenes stuff we're not privy too. I still trust RED knows what they're doing here -- it just seems odd that Jarred's making statements about how everyone is going to one one of these [REDRAY player] and yet they avoided the single biggest event of the year to showcase new tech to the broad consumer market. That's all.. :)

As for Sony and their shenanigans, I've had personal and moral issues with them for years. And yet the last thing I want to see is for Sony to face Chapter 11 or any other sort of catastrophic failure. As much as I dislike their tactics and as much as I wish they would put as much effort into product development as they do into marketing and aesthetics, I have to admit that this industry needs Sony. Sad but true, Sony has been one of the key innovators recently for pushing ahead image quality, as Blair rightly points out, not only that, but 4K, better camera features, etc.. At times [most of the time] they are not the innovators they make themselves out to be. However, they are often the catalyst that gets the new technologies moving forward. When Sony does something, others jump on the bandwagon.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Agreed, Blair, there is most definitely a lot of behind the scenes stuff we're not privy too. I still trust RED knows what they're doing here -- it just seems odd that Jarred's making statements about how everyone is going to one one of these [REDRAY player] and yet they avoided the single biggest event of the year to showcase new tech to the broad consumer market. That's all.. :)
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Perhaps it is an indication of when the consumer projector with ODEMAX will launch. Maybe it is more than 12 months out. Red did say that the Crimson would roll out first and that has yet to happen...
 
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