Is this true??

[Tim Whitcomb]

jpegs for comparisons? really? Pablo...add a 1/8 Digicon to the Epic and you will get a nearly identical result. so what?

You are using some really passive aggressive tactics to pimp whatever it is you are working on... why are you comparing a baked in image (alexa) with Raw? whats the point?

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Pablo I'm a little confused by your test and don't know what it means. You may need to explain it a bit more.

I think my bad English is confusing all of you perhaps, and the way I am making statements sound a little too arrogant, I apologize, I am just a little excited because I think, (if you want the short version), I found the way to make any digital camera look like any other digital camera, in terms of color, contrast and gamma (specially skin tones) just by accident (I am not talking about dynamic range and other features), only colors and contrast. that is the proof above. But I could be wrong, I am doing some more test in this. I don't even own a Red camera, I am a graphic designer. this was pure accident. I am using R3d stills that I downloaded from this Forum. All I can say is, everytime I try, it works..

 

[Pablo Moreno]

What lens did you use on each? I'm curious, because I see obvious purple fringing and soft edges on the EPIC shot. Very typical of Tokina optics these days, AFAIK. Mind you, the colour chart is further left on the EPIC shot. I don't own either camera but I'm curious as to what others will say.

These are not my shots, I found this somewhere in another thread, sorry if I'm using this without permission..

 

[Pablo Moreno]

jpegs for comparisons? really? Pablo...add a 1/8 Digicon to the Epic and you will get a nearly identical result. so what?

You are using some really passive aggressive tactics to pimp whatever it is you are working on... why are you comparing a baked in image (alexa) with Raw? whats the point?

What format do you want, as I said I'm not an expert, but I think that if I want to show color changes (no resolution or other artifacts), JPG is OK thou.

EDIT: I'll post TIFF from now on, and I would like to see your images side by side to compare too if you don't mind.

Also, both images above, Epic and Alexa have minimal grade, none of them are RAW. My method work perfectly with RAW too, no difference..

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

What format do you want, as I said I'm not an expert, but I think that if I want to show color changes (no resolution or other artifacts), JPG is OK thou.

EDIT: I'll post TIFF from now on, and I would like to see your images side by side to compare too if you don't mind.

Also, both images above, Epic and Alexa have minimal grade, none of them are RAW. My method work perfectly with RAW too, no difference..

no worries, we didnt know your point until you wrote to nick above .. so you are using a grading technique? a post filter? its very confusing

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Skin in the game...

Skin in the game...

Might there be a quicker way to create lush skin tones than the way I'm processing my RAW files currently? That sounds like a technique I'd like to know about. I smell troll but the chance to learn always sucks me in ;-)

IAC, RED's color science is not perfect, there I said it, right on RedUser - but neither is anyone else's. The Bayer pattern itself is a compromise, albeit one you can fabricate and implement with current technology at a practical price point, but still a compromise. Moreover, no surprise here, the influence of lighting quality on the rendition of subtle color shadings is, IMO, often a bigger factor than everything else put together. If you use instruments with high CRI (color rendering index) or modulated daylight to light your scene/talent then the path to good skin tones is much smoother.

At the end of the day you still have to address the elephant in the color suite; do you really want a precise match to what nominal human eyesight would witness were they standing where the camera is or do you really want a bit more flavor, a little zest? Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[Mike Kushner]

i don't know about the math of the photosites...just that both the R1 and Epic never resolves green how it should look to the eye in my opinion. Green screens become washed out yellow and any objects in the frame that are supposed to be a deep green never look right to me. Also takes much work to make skin tones look as good as some other cameras...my opinion.

 

[Les Dittert]

Hi Tim,
If you are referring to my request for posting full resolution jpegs, why not ?
A full quality jpeg has very little artifacting, and shows the detail levels clearly. The posts of 4K samples I did recently were not even at full quality but clearly show everything I wanted to.

jpegs for comparisons? really? Pablo...add a 1/8 Digicon to the Epic and you will get a nearly identical result. so what?

You are using some really passive aggressive tactics to pimp whatever it is you are working on... why are you comparing a baked in image (alexa) with Raw? whats the point?

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Might there be a quicker way to create lush skin tones than the way I'm processing my RAW files currently? That sounds like a technique I'd like to know about. I smell troll but the chance to learn always sucks me in ;-)

IAC, RED's color science is not perfect, there I said it, right on RedUser - but neither is anyone else's. The Bayer pattern itself is a compromise, albeit one you can fabricate and implement with current technology at a practical price point, but still a compromise. Moreover, no surprise here, the influence of lighting quality on the rendition of subtle color shadings is, IMO, often a bigger factor than everything else put together. If you use instruments with high CRI (color rendering index) or modulated daylight to light your scene/talent then the path to good skin tones is much smoother.

At the end of the day you still have to address the elephant in the color suite; do you really want a precise match to what nominal human eyesight would witness were they standing where the camera is or do you really want a bit more flavor, a little zest? Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

Bingo! you seems to be the type of guy who sees beyond the obvious.. Remember this: Edison found 99 different ways of "how NOT to make a light bulb", and only one to make it work.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

no worries, we didn't know your point until you wrote to nick above .. so you are using a grading technique? a post filter? its very confusing

Since the light hits the photosites on the sensor, all the way to the final image, there is always some kind of grading, that's a fact. RedColor-Redgamma is a color space, that's grading, . After all what grading is?, isn't about changing colors, contrast gamma, saturation, etc., to make an image look the way you want, regarding the method?. Everything has to do with grading. Now, the method you are using is what matters. All I can say is: you can reverse engineering the whole thing if you know how to. Unfortunately I cannot talk much about it until I patent this process, but what I can do now, is show you, with images (or footage) that it works.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Im not attacking you my man... I was truly interested in what you were talking about... so its a process that you want to patent? OK that means it wont be available for years... so this thread is dead now. Meantime, you guy could put an ad in the Jobs for Hire section that says.

"Fix your RED footage skin tones with my (patent pending) process for X $... "

but most of us will probably just hire a colorist.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

...

 

[Elan Gunos]

IMO your color grading made the image worse.

I know this topic causes adverse reactions but I can prove what I said. Also, just for the record, this is a constructive criticism, as a said, I discovered something, and I am working on that to correct the problem. ( I cannot talk much about in details right now thou)

Take for instance movies shot on Red like "A Dolphin Tale", or , "Unconditional".
People behind those movies are supposed to be the best (colorist) in the world, still, I know that, they have had a hard time grading the raw files from a Red camera (I know one of them personally). I'll post one example image showing you exactly what I am talking about..

Take a look at the different shades of skin tones in the first image below.

If you haven't noticed, the light shades of the skin tones are correct (to the average people's eyes), but the dark shades, instead of going smoothly to a dark-pink kinda shade , it becomes more like a gray-charcoal kind of color , that looks unnatural, and it happens in every footage I see from the red camera, and this is before or after the color correction, and it gets worse when you try to apply contrast and saturation.. Go ahead and watch again the trailers from the movies I just mentioned and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Now, Jim Jannard states that this is a "myth", and he says that you have to color balance prior to any color correction, and also he says, that Red color science has improved lately, But for my surprise, the latest movie shot on Red "Hitchcock", shows the same problem. Don't they know how to color balance?, I don't think, that's the case, instead, I know is a problem caused by the debayering algorithm and it happens at the sensor level, so don't get me wrong, we are trying to fix things here, I am not a Red hater or something like that. I have to say also that I am surprised of the work they did with the movie "Bachelorette", still, the problem is not totally corrected. The method I am working on corrects this problem as you see in the second image. I'll post more examples later, I can even "Grade after the Grade with this method".
Post your .R3d still and I'll prove it to you.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Mike, washed out greens is my experience as well with green screen.

I also agree that the quality of the light source is a really big determinant of how nice the colours are from the camera.

It will be really interesting to see how Red keeps developing in this area - I have no doubt that it is early days yet.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Let's leave rhe greenscreen issue... There are reasons for it to look like it does.

Now, Pablo...

Are you saying you are able to reverse the ColorMatrix on a Bayer sensor and re-apply a new one?

I guess you start off with a linear-light "flat image", and I guess I can think of a way to do that. I am more in doubt about the greater purpose...