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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Disappointed with Avid Workflow

D

Desmond Ford

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I recently decided to give Avid a chance in my workflow and I have to admit that I was very disappointed. With all the talk about the big post houses here in NYC using Avid, and it being a more advanced system with a steeper learning curve, I was excited and intimidated to give it a chance. I thought I'd start with something small, and this is what happened...

I wanted to sync audio tracks with some DNxHD 145 MXF files that I transcoded on set via Redcine X. Simple enough, right?

First issue I came across was that the version I bought, Media Composer 6.0 is not compatible with Mac OSX Mountain Lion, 10.8.0... fair enough, so I had to re-download MC 6.0.3. I just wish it would have known natively when I purchased Avid last month. And I couldn't simply just update it, I have to download a 2GB all over again. It took an hour because we have slow internet here in NYC due to the storm.

Next, I couldn't get the MXF files to import... turns out that after 15 minutes on the phone with tech support, I learn that all the talk about MXF being a native Avid format is NOT TRUE! You have to install a plug-in to get mxf support. Okaaay. So we installed the plug in... I mean, by definition, if you have to use a plug in, then it means that there is not native support, right?

But still couldn't get the MXF files to import. I literally spent 90 minutes on the phone with an Avid support technician, who kept trying to sell me a support contract, and after 90 minutes, I still could not import an MXF file. The tech took remote access of my desktop and went into my directory and library and settings and deleted a bunch of files, etc... I was shocked at how much work and trouble shooting was expected just to set up the basic configuration.

The technician finally suggested that I transcode all the footage to a .mov wrapper! I told him, "Quicktime? Isn't that Apple's wrapper/format?" He didn't understand the irony...

So I did that for a few files, before I realized that Avid has to actually import the files, as in render them into the system! Each file was taking anywhere form 2-5 minutes just for Avid to ingest... wtf, Really? Are you serious? Premier Pro, FCPX and Resolve read everything I put into them natively. Again, I was shocked to see how outdated Avid is...

So after a good 3 hours trying to figure it out on my own, and 90 minutes on the phone with a Avid tech, I just gave up. Put the footage in Resolve 9 Lite, free software, and within 5 minutes I was syncing audio. I feel like such an idiot for wasting on that money on Avid...


My conclusion is that there is no steeper learning curve at all. Avid is simply too bulky, unnatural, unintuitive and overly complicated. I thought I was supposed to be moving up by incorporating Avid into my workflow, instead I just feel like it's an outdated system that probably retains relevance due to the simple reason that so many post houses and people have invested too heavily in it to let it go now. I'll stick with my FCPX, Premire Pro, DaVinci and Redcine X from now onward. Hopefully I can get a refund from Avid, though I doubt it...
 
Well, I edit faster on Avid than any other system. And I've been through most of them... The native Avid format is one of the best features if you ask me, no rendering during edit, everything is smooth and real-time.
 
I still have my Avid but I never turn it on. My wife turns on hers every now and again. I find the Adobe workflow, especially with Red, is waaaaaaaaaay faster. I used to be a speed demon on Avid (of course after the super long waits to ingest everything) but now I'm a speed demon on CS6 with no waiting.

So long story short, I love CS6 and wish I didn't buy the last Avid upgrade.
 
Matt Gottshalk said:
So I'm guessing you didn't try the Avid AMA workflow huh?

http://avidscreencast.com/red-workflow-for-avid-the-complete-guide/
Click to expand...


Thanks for the link, Matt.

Actually, that is exactly what I did... several times. It would never relink. It's also what the Avid tech did, several times, each time checking off a different box. It simply doesn't work. I don't know what the guy in the tutorial link you sent me is doing, because that is exactly what I did. All through the AMA Volume and then AMA files when the volume wasn't working.

I made a post on this subject yesterday, read everything I could find online for at least two hours, and it still wouldn't link. Soemtimes it would simply say Media Offline, other times "You can't import that file, go back and uncheck two option and check all media, etc..

I'm using a RMBP 15" OSX 10.8.0 with 16GB ram and 512 SSD, so I think my system is robust enough.

But still, there are a lot of unnecessary steps involved, by which I mean, steps that you don't have to deal with when using any of the other programs I mentioned above...

It's so frustrating because I've actually never had such a difficult time with a NLE and I use them daily.
 
Jon MIchael Puntervold said:
Well, I edit faster on Avid than any other system. And I've been through most of them... The native Avid format is one of the best features if you ask me, no rendering during edit, everything is smooth and real-time.
Click to expand...


What is this native Avid format you speak of?
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd really like to know what is it that editors like so much about Avid?

I mean, it's got to be something special, right? It's not cheap. I invested in it for a reason, to see what it's all about, to help me because so many clients want me to delivery in DNxHD these days.

I'm sincerely interested in incorporating it into my workflow, but so far, I honestly can't see any advantages, only disadvantages.
 
Desmond Ford said:
I recently decided to give Avid a chance in my workflow and I have to admit that I was very disappointed. With all the talk about the big post houses here in NYC using Avid, and it being a more advanced system with a steeper learning curve, I was excited and intimidated to give it a chance. I thought I'd start with something small, and this is what happened...

I wanted to sync audio tracks with some DNxHD 145 MXF files that I transcoded on set via Redcine X. Simple enough, right?

First issue I came across was that the version I bought, Media Composer 6.0 is not compatible with Mac OSX Mountain Lion, 10.8.0... fair enough, so I had to re-download MC 6.0.3. I just wish it would have known natively when I purchased Avid last month. And I couldn't simply just update it, I have to download a 2GB all over again. It took an hour because we have slow internet here in NYC due to the storm.

Next, I couldn't get the MXF files to import... turns out that after 15 minutes on the phone with tech support, I learn that all the talk about MXF being a native Avid format is NOT TRUE! You have to install a plug-in to get mxf support. Okaaay. So we installed the plug in... I mean, by definition, if you have to use a plug in, then it means that there is not native support, right?

But still couldn't get the MXF files to import. I literally spent 90 minutes on the phone with an Avid support technician, who kept trying to sell me a support contract, and after 90 minutes, I still could not import an MXF file. The tech took remote access of my desktop and went into my directory and library and settings and deleted a bunch of files, etc... I was shocked at how much work and trouble shooting was expected just to set up the basic configuration.

The technician finally suggested that I transcode all the footage to a .mov wrapper! I told him, "Quicktime? Isn't that Apple's wrapper/format?" He didn't understand the irony...

So I did that for a few files, before I realized that Avid has to actually import the files, as in render them into the system! Each file was taking anywhere form 2-5 minutes just for Avid to ingest... wtf, Really? Are you serious? Premier Pro, FCPX and Resolve read everything I put into them natively. Again, I was shocked to see how outdated Avid is...

So after a good 3 hours trying to figure it out on my own, and 90 minutes on the phone with a Avid tech, I just gave up. Put the footage in Resolve 9 Lite, free software, and within 5 minutes I was syncing audio. I feel like such an idiot for wasting on that money on Avid...


My conclusion is that there is no steeper learning curve at all. Avid is simply too bulky, unnatural, unintuitive and overly complicated. I thought I was supposed to be moving up by incorporating Avid into my workflow, instead I just feel like it's an outdated system that probably retains relevance due to the simple reason that so many post houses and people have invested too heavily in it to let it go now. I'll stick with my FCPX, Premire Pro, DaVinci and Redcine X from now onward. Hopefully I can get a refund from Avid, though I doubt it...
Click to expand...
Although I don't think Avid is for everyone, I think you are not fully up to speed on some things in Avid and that may be contributing to the frustrations. For example, I just cut some live multicam concert footage in Avid at DNxHD36 (which are MXF files exported via Redcine-X) and it was easy as can be to bring them into Avid, sync, and edit. Once the edit is complete, will conform in Resolve using R3Ds and print to Blu-Ray/DVD.

Remember, there's no free lunch. All of these NLEs have there weak points. You may be able to save on the front-end time of ingest, but sometimes at the expense of smooth playback or on export. I like a lot of things about CS6 and I do use it a lot. I still use FCP 7, and recently have even given FCP X a try again.

It's all about workflow (or better yet, taking the work out of the flow). You have to figure out what gets the job done quickly, at a high level of quality, and is reliable. Only you can decide that through testing. But I think your first assessment may need to be reviewed to make sure you covered your bases.
 
By the way, your comment about MXF plugin: Well, by that rational then the Adobe RED importer means Adobe is not native right? No, it just means that there are some components in there to see the files correctly.

Are you putting the MXF files into the correct folder? Are you using AAF and ale files? These are things you need to get up to speed on to make it work. Once you do, you'll probably be surprised. Avid has it's faults, believe me. There are some things that need to be addressed and hopefully they are taking them seriously given the competition. But it also does some things extremely well.
 
I think you might be getting some bad info there, Desmond. Syncing dailies in Media Composer could not be easier. Yes, it's a tiny bit cryptic, and there's tons of misinformation out there (was this an actual person from Avid? Avid phone support has never earned a stellar reputation - but I never call them anymore, but rather go to the boards, like this one.)

If you transcoded to Avid DNxHD using Resolve or RedCineX, you simply drop the files into the Avid MediaFiles / MXF / [n] folder (where n is any number, unless you're on a unity system, but you're not.) They MXF files are SO native, you CAN'T import them. I agree that Avid should write in some pop-up window that opens and says 'don't do that!' when you try to use the import function.

If you made an ALE file, then you import that into a new bin, and re-link (similar to reconnect) and you're good to go. If you didn't make an FCP, simply drag-and-drop the database file from your MXF / [n] folder into the bin, and it populates instantly.

For what it's worth, Avid has KILLER help files - it's one of their strengths. Use the help manual and look up audio syncing. (Unlike FCP, where the best way to learn to do ANY operation is by using GOOGLE!) (One old assistant editor trick, by the way, if you're going to sync dailies, is to lie to MC when setting up a project and saying it's a film project- that gives you the ability to slip audio by 'perfs' instead of only on a frame boundary. No sample-slipping in MC, which is, indeed, a shortcoming.)

Honestly, my first non-linear system was D-Vision; professionally, I've also used *fire (now known as *smoke,) Lighworks, Media Composer, and Final Cut Pro, with a touch of premiere. This year, I'm mostly using FCP 7 (dead system, I know) as I'm not the one who chooses the software. I'd still rather work in MC, and it's not just because it's the tool I know best. It's the tool where I work the fastest, even after months and months on FCP. I tried premiere last year, and it was hopeless - admittedly haven't tried 6.x.

Get better advice, and try a little more- I think you'll like cutting on MC.
 
Greg and Steve,

Thanks for the input.

Yes, I definitely put everything into the AvidMediaFiles>MXF>1... I followed all the online tutorials to a T. Everything you said is well documented on the web, which is why I was so frustrated. Yes, I have MXF, AAF and an ALE files. By the end of it all I was just click each one and trying to import it several different ways just hoping one of them would work.

Either way, yes, it was an Avid technician from their support hotline. I insisted that they help me, without me using my one free support ticket, because I recently bought it and something as simple as this should not be an issue.

So if it is like you say it is, then I'll cool my heels and give it another try. But as of now, I still cannot import MXF files and I am at a loss as to why. I guess I'll just give Avid a call again tomorrow and hopefully I can get a more knowledgable tech. But seriously, the tech from yesterday had remote control of my system for over an hour and he could not import a mxf. Yes, the .mov files played fine, after ingest.

Steve, I would have to disagree with you about the plug-in issue. My reasoning is that with Premiere, I didn't have to install anything extra, i.e. plug-in, it just worked from the beginning in CS6. Therefore, to me, that makes it native. It's when I have to install peripheral extensions, software, plug-ins, etc... that I consider it to be non-native. If I understand correctly, the new update from FCPX is non-native either because you have to use a plug-in. FCPX only supports the plug-in, I think... whatever, we're prolly just debating semantics. I see where you're coming from.

I'll report back tomorrow about my experience with Avid support.

dezzy
 
desmond, if your do long format stuff, you'd see the advantages pretty quick. The media management tools, workflows are so much better. Load 10 episodes, 20 bins with several thousand clips
in FCP and you'll pull your hair out. Just reloading FCP after a crash can take 5 minutes (not sure about FCPX). Get into a larger place, and then media sharing is amazing with Unity. Small projects, one-off etcs, better to use Premier or FCPX.

Other great things are relinking, transcoding and consolidating options.
 
Well it was unfortunate that the phone support didn't understand the concept of different types of MXF and the fact that Redcine X Pro creates native Avid MXF/DNxHD that does not get imported - just added to the Avid MediaFiles folder. Form there, import the AAF and done. An ALE merge will provide additional metadata. All workflows are shown in this video: www.avid.com/red

Michael
 
Desmond, like Michael says, if these MXF files are RedCine-X-generated, they are already Avid mediafiles and there is no need to import the media, only the ALE or AAF with the clip data - and even that is optional, since you can just open up the Media Tool and drag the clips into a bin from there.
 
Coming from a FCP7 background to Avid MC6 was tough, thankfully many redusers such as MichaelP would throw me a bone here and there. Needing to delete and download 6.03 was a pain, the internet speed sucks even before Sandy lol. We're like 30th slowest connections in the world now in the US of A. I use Avid 40-50 hours a week and I still kind of dislike it, Ppro and Fcp7 just seem so much easier. At this point I can deal with it, but I still think all the other NLE's are easier. Specifically because native codec support for all codecs is typically a dream in most programs, drag and drop, any idiot can do it, I like that. I like how Redcine has lots of playback options, not just 3. I like how Ppro can give me my estimated export size on my exports prior to me exporting for hours and hours just to have the deliverable too small or too big for whatever I want it on (dvd for instance, want to use as much space as possible without going over). I like being able to be an idiot and drag and drop stuff without worrying about making it all dnxhd mxf and dealing with that bs, relinking, using ama that stutters even on a low range avid approved xeon. it all kind of sucks, but its what the gig wants and i am slowing coming to terms with it, been there since March so it forced me to improve on Avid.

at home my p pro is out of date and cant do native dsmc tho, im on cs5. so even at home i am probably going to use avid to cut my own r3d files. so far i just use redcine for playback, grading, and getting rid of pre and post roll. eventually i am putting a shooting reel together and will use avid, unless redcine becomes enough of an NLE to cut in my hand is forced. sure i can transcode and use my fcp7 or my cs5, but that sucks, i wanna cut dsmc native to save time and just use the lowest playback settings and cope.

i bought avid as a student, its a wonderful program. 4 years of free upgrades is amazing. i bought in at 5.5 and am on 6 now but can keep going. i don't use mine commercially yet, just the one at my job... I suppose all this time on it has made me come around a little bit, but your current feelings are what I had when I started Avid. I heard its easier for people to learn Avid and then other NLE's then to reverse the process, I would tend to agree with that. Going from the ease of drag and dropping anything to using a system that wants everything just so can totally be annoying. I mean 6.0 didn't even function so for a month I couldn't even do playback before the updates came out lol!
 
Desmond, sorry for your frustration, but I think you need to give Avid a little more time before you judge it so harshly.

It's a professional software, and as such is not designed to be "easy" to learn like many apple apps. They expect a certain level of experience from the outset, which does them no favors, I admit.

To start:

1) You can't "import" MXF's. You place MXF's into your "Avid MediaFiles/MXF/1" folder set.

2) However you CAN import Quicktimes that are encoded with DNXHD: Quicktime is an apple wrapper, however DNX is an Avid native codec. These quicktimes import into Avid very quickly.

The advantage of working from DNXHD Quicktimes is that it's the most client friendly way of working with Avid files. You can open these QTS in Avid, Final Cut, AE, etc. Cients can work with them instantly, and Avid editors can import them quickly. They also give you more flexibility on import (ie you can import them high-rez, low-rez, etc).

MXF media is Avid's equivalent to R3D's: it's their own raw media file. However it's very difficult to work with unless you place it in the right media directory on your computer, and know how to work with the corresponding bin. On quick turn-arounds, it's definitely the best option, however its definitely an advanced workflow. Avid was not designed with the assumption that people would be approaching jobs with raw MXF's in their hands. Avid assumes that 90% of their users are either IMPORTING files, or INGESTING from tape (both actions result in Avid creating MXF's for you).

So, please understand that working from MXF's natively is an advanced workflow. It's going to be difficult. MXF media is also pretty impossible to work with unless you are IN an Avid (you can only play it down in Avid, and there are no stand alone players available, like Quicktime, etc). The logic for this is simple. In order to be more efficient, MXF media "breaks down" all files into smaller, more manageable bits. All these "pieces" are sorted together by your bin/clip information. But as such, Avid is always working with 1000's of smaller bits, as opposed to linking to huge Quicktimes like most other NLE's (Premiere, Final Cut, etc). The result is greater efficiency and less crashing, but at the price of IMPORTING and working inside Avid with MXF's.

It's a program designed for professionals who expect a certain level of stability and performance. But to achieve that, Avid basically tells you that some of the conveniences you've gotten used to in Final Cut or Premiere will not be possible. It's a trade off.

I'm a promo producer in New York, and I have been supervising edit sessions in Avid and Final Cut for over 10 years. I've seen some of the most talented editor's work on both boxes. I can tell you, from experience, that Avid is a rock solid, super reliable platform. It has gotten me through MAJOR jobs. I have run MANY rooms at once all off THE SAME PROJECT, and never had a problem. It can mix media, mix frame rates, ingest tape, lay back frame accurately. It's like a tank. Is it perfect? NO. Is it a little old school? YES. If I were in a battle and I had my back against the wall and had to pick one platform, I would pick AVID bar bone over any other. It is SOLID GOLD.

That being said, I can't wait for it to work with RED even better. All this talk about how good Premiere is with R3D's is beginning to make me impatient.

It needs also be said that if you are working ALONE, at home, Avid could be overkill. Premiere is probably fine. Avid SHINES when it's in a facility, tethered to 20 other Avids, and working off a shared server. It also shines when you have tons of media/footage to sort through. It's also great to have if your clients and workflow is Avid based (at our office we have ONE Avid Symphony, that rocks). But if you are starting from scratch and just cutting at home by yourself and aren't in these big time scenarios, Premiere is probably, much much easier.

Just saying.

Don't make yourself learn Avid just because it's the NYC pro standard. It may not be the best solution for what YOU need now.
 
What Nick is saying is spot on - in this day and age knowing two or more NLE's is almost required much like knowing an NLE, Photoshop, and After Effects have been the main package of products to know. These days it also adds Resolve, and other color managed and color control workflows. It is constantly changing. I am as die-hard an Avid editor as they come, but can certainly see the limitations in the product for certain processes, but also know how to make those processes work. I just did a seminar that touched on all the apps that touch a Media Composer when dealing with 2K+ workflow to streamline or facilitate areas where it has "soft spots" functionality wise. But I find for the work I do, feature length destined for theatrical or broadcast, that the editing for "story" from a hundreds of hours of footage is better in Media Composer. It could be improved as with any NLE, but those core needs for me as an editor to edit story still hasn't been matched. Also, as a tool that sits in the middle of a process pipeline from set to finish, the ability to track metadata, changes to metadata, conversion of metadata, and do the extent of reporting it can do via EDL, lists, XML, AAF, etc. allows productions the flexibility to go anywhere in their finishing needs. And that is where the most debate will occur when dealing with Media Composer - the amount of creative pixel control and manipulation one has for finishing and mastering. Symphony only adds a little differentiation, creatively only one - secondary color correction, deeper color set of controls, and relational metadata to speed the color correction process based on source metadata (and yet that can be further expanded in a file based world). Nick has already referenced the collaboration of shared projects, bins and media which are fundamental to many project types. But raises a good point of the individual content creator working start to finish in their own sandbox do have other excellent choices - The CS6 Suite as well as the reboot of FCP over time with FCPX. I personally have been learning Autodesk Smoke - when combined with my offline editorial, provides a resolution independent NLE with deep graphics, composting, VFX, etc. and is to some extent the Symphony/DS finishing product that Avid has yet to make. I use Resolve a lot to do my color management, dailies, deal with 2K+ formats, and of course do a kick-ass job as a color correction system (but I am not a colorist...).

Can Media Composer evolve? I am sure it can - it will be interesting to see where Avid see "editing" over the next few years and what markets are a priority to them. But program creation has taken on so many different facets, and storytelling has gone from horizontal to vertical, to simultaneous. Avid has nailed the horizontal, dabbles in the vertical, and not even close to the simultaneous (and neither are other NLEs). The timeline is the sum of every creative choice made - and in a digital asset media management system - understanding that brings great power to every process that comes before it, and after. But I digress..


Michael
 
Greg Huson said:
If you made an ALE file, then you import that into a new bin, and re-link (similar to reconnect) and you're good to go. If you didn't make an FCP, simply drag-and-drop the database file from your MXF / [n] folder into the bin, and it populates instantly.
Click to expand...

I think you meant to write "If you didn't make an ALE..."

WOW, dragging and dropping the database file from the MXF folder into a bin was what I was missing. I'm rendering dailies from Resolve and bringing into AVID. Who would-a-thunk of that?

AVID is really, really archaic, but I'm sticking with it after having switched to it from FCP 7 as I want the interoperability with different software packages including Pro Tools. But man, some of these methods are so insanely cryptic. I mean, need to use numbered folders only... argh.
 
ALE import and relink is not the best way to go when generating from Redcine X with audio and the audio won't connect. That's why there is an AAF export for each clip. The AAF knows the ID of each clip and importing it into the bin will automatically connect to the media once it's places in any of the numbered folder within the Avid MediaFiles/MXF folder hierarchy.

Michael
 
I always defer to Michael, needless to say. Ive never actually used rcx for audio because I prefer to sync in MC.

Yes, media composer can be cryptic- in software development terms it's ancient- or rather, has had a long evolution. Version 6 is actually... What... Version 19? All that experience, though, is to your benefit. Google 'avid console commands' if you really want some power-user tools.
 
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