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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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PatrickFaith said:
I'm grateful for Jannard putting his neck out a bit and starting this thread, I had no idea that Sony was going to announce the F5, nor do I really keep track on the other manufacturer's development pipeline.
I think he is just giving us a heads up that there is going to be a dog fight, and RED is ready for it.
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He did mention they don't have a backlog, maybe he is trying to stop sales so he can catch up on making back orders. I'm kidding ;)

I don't think it is much of a risk, only a few days, and stops people from putting orders in for the Sony in the meantime.

Please note, does the Scarlet upgrade issue mean we should just wait for an official dragon scarlet model?

Also, see my above thread Patrick, for inevitable strategy wars.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I can't help but point out that rentals for Epic don't exist in a vacuum. Does not the price of every other roughly comparable camera influence the market? If Panasonic comes out with a SUPER HVX-8000 that steps all over everyone else's technology, all for $4995, would RED holding their price save the day for the Epic rental market. Like it or not, RED can't dictate the market; they have to work within it.
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Alexa rentals did not suffer at all in spite of being almost twice the price of the Epic. On the contrary, Alexa seem to be doing better than Epic, despite being an inferior camera in some ways.
You argument seems flawed.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Excellent. I rest my case.

Emanuel A. said:
Where's your humor? Nowhere :)
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No. That one...

Hrvoje Simic said:
It got temporarily misplaced behind a pillow on the back seat.
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(I know you already had mine and Rob's line but) it was very good... I laughed :D

In a more serious note, a lot of people do it for the sake of art* -- just for it, but you can properly call a business when people make a living from. It is rather easy to get that any variable of price on the gear going up (as well, going down for sure) may produce a weight dramatically significant on the projects of our own. Besides an investment of six years also comprehending a digital camera system we count on and on and can't fail !


* With plain sacrifice of our own families. I don't see my parents and my native country since February 2011, 22 and 24 respectively, on the road, like many others of my group spread all over the globe from NZ (literally) to the other side of the planet. I am typing from a hotel room in Ljubljana, as of tonight. Tomorrow, Zagreb. In a couple of days, Belgrade. Then, Montenegro where we're also based in since last winter/spring. In the beginning of the month, we were shooting in the Albanian border with no permit for some reason ; ) Yet along this year, Ukraine and Russia. Nevertheless, maybe I had the chance to come back home yet this month to help one of my partners in the shooting of the new production of Peter Greenaway where there's a department under our own direct responsibility. And less than a couple of hours ago, among posts on reduser, it was subject of prepping. So, as you see, we are not so low grade ;-)

Then, I can visit one of my homes in the country where I have part of my stuff but don't go since 2002 (it seems crazy, isn't it? It is). In any case, it is not easy to dream with family plans when we are abroad anyhow. For some shooters/moviemakers/artmakers/businessmakers, perhaps you included : ) life is not behind a desk, at times, unfortunately. And we pay monthly rent for several offices in three different countries (more to come), at least, as of today.
 
Let me add another point to the discussion. I completely understand the position of the rental people in this forum. I think we all do. But we have to take this into consideration: If the Sony comes to the market with a 25K fully operational high framerate 4K camera, and has a better sensor, a much bigger marketing team as well as support machine worldwide- its Sony!- then no one will seriously buy, at current prices, an Epic or full Scarlet package- only probably a few Red Centric production houses or companies already invested in Epic 3D rigs. When the Dragon comes, then its a different story, no question about it. Right now, lets not forget the MX is a 2 or 3 years old sensor. An eternity in the current Digital Cinema development race. By making the Epic competitive in the Sony's pricepoint, it warrants that Epics are still considered for purchase due to its unique features/ the Epic still has some features that those F cameras do not have.

This is a necessary move to make the Epic current until the "game changing" next generation comes along. What red needs to do is to bring its comprehensive 4K ecosystem out soon, too. The Red Projector, the red player, these things are important to establish the Red ecosystem. Looking forward to future announcements!
 
I would like to post my opinions on this matter and they are that... my opinions. I will say that I have always considered myself as an advanced user when it came to electronics and photographic equipment however I did not have a formal training in film or photography (honestly I didn't feel like I needed to waste money on formal training). I would like to applaud ANY potential price reduction on Scarlet and/or EPIC prices. I recently purchased a Scarlet camera in July of 2012 and I do not feel raw at all about any potential price reduction enacted by RED. It is NOT their responsibility to protect me in pricing. The last professional camera I owned was a Canon XL1S which I purchased probably in 2001 or 2002 if my memory serves right. I only have not upgraded since then because I expected technology would get better and I never found tech to be good enough since then and now. I feel RED only has a responsibility to continue cranking out the latest and greatest. It is obvious they are developing the Dragon and how do you expect them to adjust to announcements from competitors promoting new products. They ultimately have to drop prices. This is a great thing. I would not complain that they are dropping prices. That makes it that much quicker that I can upgrade to Epic. And who knows I may purchase more than one considering the new prices. It took me over 10 years to finally make a jump into purchasing a new professional camera system (solely because it was the only camera that I saw fit that met my needs and in my price category). I feel like others that have stated that this is simply moore's law. Things are moving very quickly now. But the fact is that I need a camera NOW. Not a year ago and not a year from now. Prices will come down now and while Rob made a decision to buy back then, I have no sympathy for him. I have to look out for myself just as RED has to look out for themselves. And as much as anyone thinks it is in RED's best interest to artificially drop prices (by not dropping them where they are a game changer, as Rob would suggest, I do not believe that) So Rob, do us a favor and stop trying to speak for the multitudes of silent RED purchasers which are upset by potential price decreases. I have been a silent RED purchaser as well and I did by recently and I am not upset by this potential price decrease. And I will not be within the 30 day window to which I would get a accessories credit and I still want prices to go down. Because I did not foolishly make a bad "Investment". The last time I checked RED was a consumer products company and a private company at that. They have no responsibility to Public "investors". I don't consider my purchase an investment. I consider it a gateway to making my dream a reality. And you know what. If I was solely in the rental game and bought to rent out this camera I would not blame or ask RED "to be reasonable" in reducing prices. I am not on their board of directors. You should have done your own research on investing in tech. It is not their responsibility in protecting you. They have a responsibility to making sure the product performs under warranty. Sorry but I am just sick of 91 pages of garbage in which you sound like you are looking out for all of us. Remove me from your "others who are silent". I do not agree with your opinions. And I have owned multiple businesses myself and have developed multiple business plans myself. Just so you know.
 
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If, by some crazy chance, Epic actually goes sub-$20k (doubt it; I'm thinking $25k brain) I really hope RED offers a Scarlet>Epic trade-in program. I know it'd be unwarranted and just as unlikely as Epic dropping to sub-$20k, but man that'd be hard for current Scarlet owners to pass up.
 
It just might be my friend. My spidey senses are tingling.

Mike P. said:
If, by some crazy chance, Epic actually goes sub-$20k (doubt it; I'm thinking $25k brain) I really hope RED offers a Scarlet>Epic trade-in program. I know it'd be unwarranted and just as unlikely as Epic dropping to sub-$20k, but man that'd be hard for current Scarlet owners to pass up.
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Bob,

I am new to RED. In the case of a potential Epic trade-in program would you expect that to last for a while or would there just be a short window in which you would have to exercise that option? I am still debating adding a second Scarlet to my kit before adding an Epic. Thinking if I can add a second Scarlet that in time I could upgrade both to dragon or upgrade both to Epic in the future.
 
No idea Samir. But my hunch is that RED will have something interesting today or tomorrow. I would imagine that the upgrade programs from the past probably would evolve to something different in todays climate. But hey, you never know.

Samir Patel said:
Bob,

I am new to RED. In the case of a potential Epic trade-in program would you expect that to last for a while or would there just be a short window in which you would have to exercise that option? I am still debating adding a second Scarlet to my kit before adding an Epic. Thinking if I can add a second Scarlet that in time I could upgrade both to dragon or upgrade both to Epic in the future.
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Emanuel A. said:
No. That one...
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Yes I know, Emanuel. That joke was not an insensitive childish move. But it did appear that way. Like one other thing before did. Hence "I rest my case" and the quotes of differences in perspectives. Both jokes would probably seem more benevolent not being stripped from tone of voice and facial expression.

Hopefully you can accept that different people in different segments of this market deal with different factors, requirements and concerns, neither negating others' or necessarily being selfish...and that although we all live in different worlds or own projections of "reality" we still love the same craft...

It would take either a low intellect or moral for assuming or suggesting to a fellow colleague notions of "low grade", so no need for that whole part.
Chill...DVXuser fun wasn't that long ago. ;)
 
Samir Patel said:
You should have done your own research on investing in tech. It is not their responsibility in protecting you. They have a responsibility to making sure the product performs under warranty. Sorry but I am just sick of 91 pages of garbage in which you sound like you are looking out for all of us.
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Totally agree with you here. People investing in Red should know what kind of company they are by now. I sure do, and this move makes complete sense. They've never been interested in playing by the industry "rules" and marking up prices just to create artificial exclusivity and fake-markets. Anyone who's been paying attention in the last few years surly has to see by now that the industry model everyone's been fallowing has been based upon a virtual monopoly. We're lucky that a company like Red even exists to keep kicking this stagnant industry in the ass. Keep it moving!!!
 
Bryce O said:
Red's always been about free-market competition... and it's about time someone kicked this stagnant industry in the ass. Go get 'em!!!
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But but... then, won't the rental people all get peeved if RED lower the prices..?


-- peer



(relax everyone, especially Mr. Spasic -- it's all in jest)
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Yes I know, Emanuel. That joke was not an insensitive childish move. But it did appear that way. Like one other thing before did. Hence "I rest my case" and the quotes of differences in perspectives. Both jokes would probably seem more benevolent not being stripped from tone of voice and facial expression.

It would take either a low intellect or moral for assuming or suggesting to a fellow colleague notions of "low grade", so no need for that whole part.
Chill...DVXuser fun wasn't that long ago. ;)
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As specific medium, forums have its intrinsic property. On the other hand, something can be lost in the use of second languages. Anyway, the childish remark was towards a fight no one was/is trying to feed up. And beyond the differences, there's never room to disregard the other side. And never the people behind actually. Indeed we all look for what fits better our own survival. It is healthy when we can discuss even when we diverge, no matters what, just to take notice that there's someone like us on the other side. More or less known, but it is. Humor can chill out the tension of anything that affects our daily life. Art or craft, whatever business is, there's always a point of view, based on our beliefs, experiences, our own decisions made in the past which make us today. I concur that everything can be much more unstable when we live times that go so fast as nowadays (E :-)

:beer:
 
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