Lighting conference room with lots of windows

[Michael Frymus]

This will be my first shoot on the RED.

I have an idea as to how to light this, but im just wondering on your input whether it is a good idea or not, and how would you do this?

Windows facing:
North (conference left side)
South (conference back side)

What I was thinking:
A large HMI (hopefully a 1.2K would work at most)
place it at the front left side, almost near the corner so its more frontal light than the side and light it through a 4x4, 6x6, or 8x8 diffusion panel. (depending which is available and room). Scrim it down a lot for those sitting beside it.

I was also thinking of adding some lights on top somehow so it doesnt look like its just window light thats lighting them, but so there is some light from the ceiling. It should look like a very formal setting. Like a top government meeting is going on.

The windows I was thinking of adding some ND gel, but thats a LOT of gel id need. Possibly ND6
I need to see outside these windows. The view is AMAZING!

TIPS:
But these are my ideas... I havent really done lighting for a room such as this.
So, i may be off, or I could be close.
Any suggestions/improvements/changes?

I'm not saying to give me your ideas, but hoping you could guide me along the way

 

[Olivier Madar]

First, you have to go with hmi, not tungsten. What kind of angle of view do you need ? did you made a EV incidence light to have an idea of the power of light that you will need ?
I think a jokerbug 800 +/- a chimera could be the more versatile and easy light you should bring. With it you can use a narrow lens and see the outside back with some ND on the lens or use a softlight from the chimera. If you can go with the 1600 watts, you will have +1 exposure.

Olivier

 

[Justin Marx]

Honestly, if you need to shoot that wide (whole room) and look at the windows, 1- 1.2k ain't gonna cut it.

first of all, if you can ND the windows, that's a step in the right direction. But expensive! You could get a few more lights for the $$ and a generator.

use HDRx if you are shooting with the Epic.

Shoot that direction at a less direct part of the day. Wait until the sun is at a less intense angle before you shoot towards the windows.

If you can only use wall powered lights, get the new arri m18. 2 would be best, net the people closest, don't scrim because that will kill your whole light. Use 216 if you can afford the loss of light to diffuse it. Seeing outside that window without ND and nothing bigger than a 1200 is close to, impossible for your wide shot unless you do it as the sun is going down.

for closer shots, have a joker for a back light, or depending how intense the exterior light is, you might have natural sun as you backlight.

Use bounce whe you can! The sun is blazing, bounce it. Have some white sheets/show card to bounce whatever light that is coming in. If you can, use a mirror.

good luck!

 

[Mark Phelan]

My first question is why are you shooting this room? Is this an architectural shot, a meeting shot with lots of people, what exactly?

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Not sure what you are shooting, but I gaffed a similar room for a shoot about 6 months ago. I ND'd the windows with 0.9 and it was still not enough. If its a hot day, you will have to respritz and/or resquegee the gel over the course of the shoot. Luckily, it was a fairly tight shot (fake newscaster sitting at a desk in front of windows showing the Washington DC monuments in the background). So there were only a few "panes" to deal with. If you are doing the whole room, bring a lot of PAs.

Note also that the sun will change positions over the day, as well as passing clouds that will affect your exposures.

I used a pair of Jokers (400/200) in Chimera's as key and fill. But again, that was a tight shot.

 

[Matt Ryan]

you would need at least a 4k hmi to balance with the windows. Once you go through diffusion you just cut the output in half. Personally I'd probably rent 2x 4k hmi's and bounce them into the ceiling without diffusion (use scrim's to fine tune levels). It's hard to help when you can't see the location first hand but bringing up the ambient reading in the room from indirect sources is the most natural looking in these situations. Make sure your windows are at least 2-3 stops over for a natural look (without blowing them out).

 

[Michael Frymus]

see post below...

 

[Bob Gundu]

I say blow the windows if there is nothing important to see outside. It's all in the blocking and framing.

 

[Michael Frymus]

STORY/LOCATION REASONING:
This location is a part of the 'power plant/factory/lab' in our film.
There is a big very formal meeting going on in this room. Its a formal meeting of a unveiling of a new 'product'. That's the best way to explain. The most powerful people are there in the BG (professors, scientists, etc.)

The film is slightly futuristic. Maybe 100 years or so. Not so much that we have flying cars, but keeping it real. Not much has changed, but there are still subtle changes to things like buildings, etc.


WHATS OUT THE WINDOWS:
We're hoping to see outside the windows because its the only time in the film where we will actually see outside. So, we want to see the outside where we would add a few buildings so it looks more futuristic.


LIGHTING MOOD:
Throughout the film we want a contrasty blown look. Example: The Island

However, I dont really want to blow out the windows as for the reason mentioned above.
But because adding ND onto the windows is so expensive we wont be able to afford it in our budget.

IF we cannot get a decent exposure on the windows, we will have them blown out more to match the rest of the films look.
My director is fine with that because he knows that with the limited budget and the lighting problems, hes okay with letting it blow a bit if needed since it's a style he kind of wants any ways.
BUT, if the windows are more exposed, then I may add a small amount of haze in the room. Depending if I have any other lighting setups and if it doesnt interfere. But, if its okay, I may add a little bit just so we can see a few streaks of light.

Also referring back to the movie The Island, there are a lot of coloured lights (Straw/Yellow and Cyan)
Because I cant add gels up on the windows, Ill probably shoot between tungsten and daylight, about 4800K.

What I'd like to do also is light the characters with a rim light as if they were also lit from the 'house lights'
I dont necessary want the actors lit up with only the 'sunlight'. I want it to feel like a real conference meeting where they are also lit from the lights in the room from above. (tungsten lights) Either an orangy top rim light or more of a softer frontal light allowing for better exposure.

The main characters (in the front of the room) will be lit mainly by 'houselights' with a hint of orange and not by sunlight. While BG characters by mainly 'sunlight' with a hint of 'houselights' as a rim

The main characters will be more contrast looking as they are lit by houselights.
There will also be a statue on the left side of the podium which will be lit be a few spot lights.


THE HMI:
I understand a 1.2K HMI is too small. But, having a genny in this building is not possible.
I was told to get an electric and try a tie to the building, but since this is a low budget shoot, Im not sure if this would be affordable or if its possible. (permission)

I heard about the new M18, but I dont know if 'P.S. Productions, Toronto' has any yet. It doesn't say anything on their website.
I'd have to contact them.


HOW WE ARE SHOOTING:
We wont be shooting towards the back (West/Back) much.
We will be shooting that way only on a wide angle as it will base as an establishing shot so we know we are in a council room.

A wide shot of the room, and a few close ups on two characters while they ask quick questions. Most of the scene is short towards the front. When facing this way, there will most likely not be any windows in the shot. I may catch the left corner windows if on a wide, but I doubt.
So, having the moving sun behind wont be THAT big of an issue as its not long of a shoot when facing towards the windows.
And when facing towards the front, the sun rays will not reach.


CAMERA:
We are shooting primary with the Red One and possibly the Scarlet if its available. - the scarlet has HDRx, can I use that?

When the windows are behind the characters and to the side, where should the key light (HMI) be then? If the sun is in the shot, its going to be backlit.

 

[Justin Marx]

I would be with your director on this one.. The budget is not helping you see out those windows.. So don't stress it. Just get a few 1.2ks, and jokers, and do your best. Or just see outside for closeups by NDing the windows for key shots except for your wide.

Put your key light where you think it will key your actor? I mean if you have blazing windows behind and are good with that, use fill and negative fill for your non key side.. Or use your 1200. This is really all we can help,with without seeing the exact shot.

you will be fine.. Just use your judgement when you are there and see what light yo are competing with outside..
HDRx on scarlet I'm sure will help you, but I am an epic owner, so not sure

good luck!

 

[Nick Gardner]

I do this shot all the time for political spots. You are pretty much screwed if you have to look out the side with screaming sun. If one side works, shoot that way, then cheat all your reverses to be on that side too. I have always heard it called a Mexican reverse. Flop screen direction, move talent, and redress appropriately. I usually bounce a 1200 into he ceiling if it's white, or into a 4x4 bead board stuffed into the ceiling if it isn't white. Another gag I do sometimes, is put a chinese lantern (the bigger the better) above the conference table, and then shoot 1200 pars into it from 2 different corners. Super narrow lenses. That ususally gets the level up enough that you have ambient that can hold outside and expose the room, then add Lights to shape what you want to see, also neagtive fill. The close ups are easy, it's the wide that is hard. Most modern office buildings have ND in the glass, so it's not as bad as it would seam.

Talk to art department. MAybe you can get some kind of big transparencies that can go on the windows and look high tech. Sort of reverse trans lights. Think outside the box, employ all your resources. I'm sure it will work out fine.

Edit - I found a spot we did with a conference room shot in it. We do 10 locations a day on these things, and my standard lighting package has nothing larger than a 1200 in it. I don't recall exactly how we lit this one, but like I said, we usually bring up the level, and then shape. It's shitty sd but you get the idea. Shot is at 10 second mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tccdAGzzIIA&feature=relmfu



Nick

 

[Michael Frymus]

Talk to art department. MAybe you can get some kind of big transparencies that can go on the windows and look high tech. Sort of reverse trans lights. Think outside the box, employ all your resources. I'm sure it will work out fine.

I actually though the same thing not too long ago.
Use something like the tracking paper (1000H) Not sure on the cost of that yet, ill look into it tomorrow instead of at 3am. :/
Or something similar...

 

[Peter Berger]

THE HMI:
I understand a 1.2K HMI is too small. But, having a genny in this building is not possible.
I was told to get an electric and try a tie to the building, but since this is a low budget shoot, Im not sure if this would be affordable or if its possible. (permission)

I heard about the new M18, but I dont know if 'P.S. Productions, Toronto' has any yet. It doesn't say anything on their website.
I'd have to contact them.

Don’t give up on decent production values yet. As the saying goes, “there is more than one way to skin a cat.” Another low budget approach described elsewhere in this forum is to use double nets outside the windows and 4k HMIs plugged into wall outlets. You can rent a couple of 20x double nets that will cut down the windows for a fraction of the price of the ND required to gel the windows, and it will also go up a lot quicker. And, you can probably rent older 4k Pars with magnetic ballasts for a lot less than the $350/day that the new Arri M18s go for.

I would also recommend that you lay 2x4s inside the recess of the ceiling and hang 1200 Pars to three quarter back your talent from the window side that the sun comes in and then use the 4k to fill. This way you get a lot more mileage out of the 4k. I would also hang a Joker 400 in a lantern from the lumber in the center of the room to get light into your talents eyes around the table.

Don’t dispair, it can be done.

Peter Berger

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

This could be one of those situations where a newer lighting technology may be the answer.
Talking about the remote phosphor lights introduced by PRG this year at NAB. They had some preliminary demos late last year - showed it to us at a SMPTE meeting in New York last fall - remarkable lights with a lot of capability:

http://www.prgtrucolor.com/hs-overview

With each fixture drawing only 400 watts, you have the ability to set up a number of them without tripping breakers or going through the expense to do a tie-in.
They are small, dimmable and do not require a ballast - so your clutter on the floor is easier to manage.

I agree with Peter's suggestion of hanging a HMI with a lantern in the center - with the added thought of making the lantern a pancake - and you could easily use the ARRI 400 PAR with bare bulb housing if that is easier to obtain in your market.

As far as other lights to accent, since the new ARRI L7-C or L7-D's are not yet available, check into the new LitePanels Fresnel LED's - they have a new series out that are low on power consumption and pack a good punch. Took a look at them a couple of weeks ago but cannot remember the model numbers...


As far as the windows, why not consider green screen? Put whatever you want in there.
Those AMTRAK ads (passengers on a train / scenery passing) were all keyed in post.

Very important point to consider - it does not take long for the illumination coming in from outdoors to change enough to destroy continuity. The more you can control that factor, the better.

 

[Pablo Moreno]

Wait a second!!, if you say that you can use a Scarlet; isn't HDRx perfect for the job according to this:

http://blog.localheropost.com/main/?currentPage=2

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

Well Rosco scrim, Do all the windows you see. ( if you can $)
ND cost to mush and with out a great grip the gel would be a mess.
4 x 1.2 have two on one stand on each side of the end of the tables have the art dept. dress the stands.
Clamp some jokers to were the projector mounts. Let the outside burn a little bit. Dont forget art card to hide the lights in the window reflections.
Do a test first you might be surprised, under exposed the faces and bring the shadows up in post
or do the close ups first and wait for the sun almost set and shoot the wide. Good luck
or
If the wide shot doesn't have to move shoot a second plate exposed for out side and have you post guy make a matt so you can replace the windows with the second daker plate.
I would use my hot gears and repeat the shot with the 2nd plate exposed for out side exposure. Party on

 

[Michael Frymus]

Note: This is a building, up 13 floors. There is NO access to the outside. If there was, then I wouldnt hesitate to put up some nets. That would have been the first thing I thought of. So, ND was the second option, but due to the price, its not possible. So, nothing will be in front of those windows.

I would also recommend that you lay 2x4s inside the recess of the ceiling and hang 1200 Pars to three quarter back your talent from the window side that the sun comes in and then use the 4k to fill. This way you get a lot more mileage out of the 4k. I would also hang a Joker 400 in a lantern from the lumber in the center of the room to get light into your talents eyes around the table.

How would I mount the 2x4's?
I was hoping to get some kind of a grid system up, but I dont know how to put it up without seeing the stands on the sides/back. Not sure if covering it up would be an option. If it is, then I will consider it.
The other method was putting up pipes between the higher ceiling. Im not sure on the name, but they expand and tighten by twisting it I believe. Then mount lights from that. But it depends on how much weight those things can support.

You're saying to use 1.2K Pars. How many and how did you say?
I was thinking of attaching tungsten lights instead, like 650w with 1/2 or 1/4 CTB. Would be much lighter, and act more as the house lights giving the actors more of a tint of orange as a top key? - They wouldnt be very noticeable, but still working.
Or would lighting with just daylight be best?

The biggest issue I find is which side to light the key. The sunlight will be out the back causing a rim light. The light will not be on the side, but always on the back, which is problematic.
So even with the sun as the rim light, another light source would have to be off on the actors left side. It cant be too bright as it would look like two big powerful light sources lighting the room (two suns; one from the back one from the side) Would it not?

I will probably put the M18 on the actors left side more as a fill from the sun and act it as a key, but not over powering it so it looks like sunlight key but bounced light.

The lantern in the center sounds interesting, I have been thinking of something similar (lantern on a pole) to swing around when doing CU shots. But, I was also thinking about those tungsten's above and didnt think I wouldn't need it? For those in the middle section, it would work, but it probably wouldn't reach those on the outside. On a CU, I could bring the lantern closer in on them so it does catch their eyes more.

The ceiling isn't white. It is on the outer edge and the inside is wood. It is about 1-2 feet higher.
So, with the M18, Id probably have to bounce it with an 6x6 or 8x8 Ultrabouce or something like that or light it through a 6x6 or 8x8 silk.

I'm not going to do a tie in to the building. I don't think its really possibly. If it was a bigger budget shoot, okay, maybe.
Were going to have to work with the available power. Meaning there could be only a few circuits available. I wont know until I can get back in there with the gaffer.

We do have a scarlet, but the question is whether it will be available for us to use on the day of our shoot.

 

[Peter Berger]

I was thinking of attaching tungsten lights instead, like 650w with 1/2 or 1/4 CTB. Would be much lighter, and act more as the house lights giving the actors more of a tint of orange as a top key? - They wouldnt be very noticeable, but still working.Or would lighting with just daylight be best?

Don’t bother with half corrected tungsten or LEDs like the PRG Trucolor mentioned above – that’s like spitting in the ocean if you can’t scrim or gel the windows. You will have to pull out the big guns to hold detail in the windows.

The biggest issue I find is which side to light the key. The sunlight will be out the back causing a rim light. The light will not be on the side, but always on the back, which is problematic. So even with the sun as the rim light, another light source would have to be off on the actors left side. It cant be too bright as it would look like two big powerful light sources lighting the room (two suns; one from the back one from the side) Would it not?

Remember that there are two components to daylight: direct sun and sky shine. Rig 1.2 Pars into the ceiling to replicate the softer more diffuse sky shine that should come through a window. I would rig them on the right side, as close as you can get them to the windows, as a three quarter back or side key.

How would I mount the 2x4's? I was hoping to get some kind of a grid system up, but I dont know how to put it up without seeing the stands on the sides/back….it depends on how much weight those things can support.

If you lay two 2x4s on the short side (you will need cross bracing on the ends so they don’t roll) across the recess in the ceiling so that they are perpendicular to the right wall of windows, you can then rig 1.2 pars on them with studded c-clamps. Since they will be rigged right where the 2x4s are sitting on the lip of the ceiling recess, there will be plenty of support for them. You can then lay another 2x4 across these two in the middle to support your Joker with lantern. Use Chimera banks (preferably strip banks) on the pars to soften their output.

The ceiling isn't white. It is on the outer edge and the inside is wood… So, with the M18, Id probably have to bounce it with an 6x6 or 8x8 Ultrabouce or something like that or light it through a 6x6 or 8x8 silk.

Because you have two walls of windows you will have to bounce your fill from high. If the ceiling isn’t white, I would cove foam-core between the top of the wall opposite the back wall of windows and the ceiling. Forget about bouncing a 1.8 Arrimax – its an expensive head to rent and its not going to do anything. You will get a lot more out of bouncing a 4 k par into the cove of foam-core and it will be cheaper if you go with a older head with a magnetic ballast.

I'm not going to do a tie in to the building. I don't think its really possibly. If it was a bigger budget shoot, okay, maybe. Were going to have to work with the available power. Meaning there could be only a few circuits available.

You don’t need to tie-in to power the 4k. I would bet there is a kitchen adjacent to (or near by) the conference room. The kitchen will have an electric range or 240V receptacles for caterer’s warming ovens that you can plug the 4k into. If there is no kitchen, then find the copier room – large copier machines also use 240 Volts. If you are using a 4k Par with magnetic ballast for budget reasons, you will need a Transformer/Distro to step-down the 240V output to a single large 120V circuit. The largest one I know of is an 84A Transformer/Distro that is made for the new 10kw Honda EB10000. But, theoretically, with the right size transformer you can get 100 Amps at 120V from a 50A Range plug. If your film rental house doesn’t have one, check with an event staging house since they are more commonly used in event staging than film production. The 84A Transformer/Distro for the new 10kw Honda EB10000 is wired with a 100A Bates receptacle already. You will have to make up an adapter for one coming from an events staging house.

Peter Berger

 

[Andrew Burhoe]

This will be my first shoot on the RED.

I have an idea as to how to light this, but im just wondering on your input whether it is a good idea or not, and how would you do this?

Windows facing:
North (conference left side)
South (conference back side)

What I was thinking:
A large HMI (hopefully a 1.2K would work at most)
place it at the front left side, almost near the corner so its more frontal light than the side and light it through a 4x4, 6x6, or 8x8 diffusion panel. (depending which is available and room). Scrim it down a lot for those sitting beside it.

I was also thinking of adding some lights on top somehow so it doesnt look like its just window light thats lighting them, but so there is some light from the ceiling. It should look like a very formal setting. Like a top government meeting is going on.

The windows I was thinking of adding some ND gel, but thats a LOT of gel id need. Possibly ND6
I need to see outside these windows. The view is AMAZING!

TIPS:
But these are my ideas... I havent really done lighting for a room such as this.
So, i may be off, or I could be close.
Any suggestions/improvements/changes?

I'm not saying to give me your ideas, but hoping you could guide me along the way

Well in Margin Call they ND Gel'd the windows. But they also had PD make these elongated panes as well. That is what I would do so that I didn't need to truck in lights.