Roger Deakins, ASC vs. 4K

[Marc Wielage]

I was surprised to see this headline in Studio Daily today:

Roger Deakins’ Digital Odyssey Not in 4K
The Cinematographer Says 2K Alexa Footage Up-Resed to IMAX Looks 'Superb';
ARRI Says 'No Need for 4K Alexa Right Now'

The full article is here:

http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/09/roger-deakins-digital-odyssey-not-in-4k/

and the first part of the video interview is here:

I have great respect for Roger and his work, but I have to say there is a visible difference between something shot in 4K and something uprezzed from 2K to 4K. What I will say is that the difference is much smaller than a lot of people think, and it depends a lot of content, exposure, contrast, and color correction.

I have to say, the 2K projects I've seen that were uprezzed to Imax -- including a film I worked on, Shine a Light -- looked fine. The technology to sharpen and uprez material has gone a long way. But I still think there's a lot of issues on both sides.

I was struck by another sentence in the article:

"While Alexa is being used more frequently to acquire big-budget Hollywood films, notably this year's box-office crusher The Avengers, the camera is an even larger hit among DPs in episodic television, where it has now surpassed a whopping 85% market share."

The article doesn't note that I suspect this is happening because the camera can quickly generate simultaneous QuickTime files without the need for DeBayering or further processing (assuming the end result is 1080 HD). The reasons for choosing the camera have nothing to do with 2K or 4K, but more about a perception of speed and ease of use. I think when the Meizler Module ships, this will level the playing field a lot more.

Let me also say that Deakins is a fine cinematographer who does great work. In his hands, I don't think the camera will make that great a difference. And I bet he could great incredible pictures out of the Epic.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Very interesting.

 

[Jon Jones]

Yes a great cinematographer, but obviously has some misconceptions...

 

[Bob Gundu]

Arri have been really marketing the 2K is good enough mantra lately. But I can't really blame them as they seem to have a winning formula. Why would they mess that up?

 

[Dominik Muench]

thanks for this marc, great find. thats very interesting to see how the opinions of even the big game guys vary when it comes to digital cinematography.

I had the great pleasure to interview Don McAlpine ACS, ASC (Moulin Rouge, Predator, Romeo+Juliet) last year and he said he cant see 4K akquisition and theatre projection take over as standard soon enough.

here is the interview with Don for anyone interested (he had some very positive things to say about RED and his latest feature film he shot here in Australia was done on RED too) :

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes a great cinematographer, but obviously has some misconceptions...

I can't speak for Roger but having worked with other cinematographers of his status I would say that it's most likely he's just going by what his eyes are telling him. He likes the images from the Alexa. No doubt there are some DPs who just have it in for RED. They don't like the company, they don't like the approach. They don't like how the camera is built, whatever the case may be. I addressed this a bit in this thread http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?84004-Perception&highlight=

Now, it's possible that Roger's first encounters with RED may have been negative for one reason or another. I can't seem to recall seeing anything about that. It's possible that future tests may reveal things to him that change his perception. It could be he uses it for a movie that needs the extra resolution, clarity of the 5K image. Maybe he just simply loves Arri cameras and will use whatever they have available at the time. I doubt that though. I think he will continue to choose based on the project.

I think the takeaway here is that unless there is a hidden agenda with him, it might be as simple as he likes the look of the images he gets from the Alexa. And that's okay. I have to respect him for choosing what he thinks is the right tool for him. Just like we would hope that people would respect a DP for choosing a RED over Alexa.

What's even better than camera talk with Roger is lighting talk. A lot we can all learn there. And in the past he has been generous about sharing his knowledge on that subject.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Roger Deakins is a genius, one of the finest DPs out there. If Alexa is his choice so be it

 

[Michael Millichamp]

If you can shoot like Deakins, it doesn't matter how many K's you have. That man knows how to engage you in a story through his cinematography.

He will put you in the exact mood the script calls for, and for that, I don't care if he's an avid supporter for iPhones, he is so amazingly talented.

 

[Scott Crawley]

The thread title is a bit sensationalist. Based upon what I saw in that video I'd say that Roger Deakins v. 4k is a fallacy. When speaking of Alexa I've only ever heard him avoid talk of resoluton, preferring instead to discuss roll-off and DR.

While he poo pooed the K race and ultra high resolution systems he did not make a case against 4k. In fact he admitted in part three of the interview, when discussing IMAX transfer, that he would like to see more resolution coming from Arri/Alexa. To me that said a great deal.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

For those who don't feel like watching half an hour of Roger Deakins:

- Shooting digital for the first time, he kept asking his 1st to make a recording of a 535 so he could relax and stop straining to hear the familiar sound of film running through the mag.

- There are five reasons why he--and others--prefer Alexa:

a) lowlight sensitivity
b) roll off into highlights
c) the "grain" structure--as Jim mentions, Arri oversamples larger pixels, it's the upside of lower resolution.
d) human texture and color (Arri modeled their sensor off Vision 3, Red repurposed an industrial sensor)
e) familiar form factor

Below is the resolution chart Jim posted two years ago. Back then, I paid attention to numbers, not gradations. Look where zone 8 becomes 9, and 9 becomes 10--that last bit of detail in the highlights. It isn't so much about what detail is there. It's about the transition between zone 8 and 9, then 9 and 10. This rolloff is really the Arri secret sauce, what resembles the "shoulder" of film's spectral response curve.

When Jim claims 2+ more stops latitude with Dragon, I hope this is what he really means.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

I was disappointed when I found out that Skyfall would be filmed on the Alexa by Deakins when production on the movie got started, but I have much too respect for Deakins to hold anything like that against him. There are many people in the industry who prefer the look and feel of the Alexa because it looks and feels like a film camera. I am a proud Epic owner but I'll be first to say that the Alexa is truly a great camera. Having said all that, the argument that 2k upresed to 4k is good enough does seem a bit odd to me.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Both 2K and 4K are great...........but 4K is better than 2K.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Let's please just swat this pesky mosquito once and for all, please.

Woah woah woah let's hold off on the bizarre extermination rhetoric and just acknowledge the fact that Roger liked the way human eyeballs looked on the Alexa.... and that's it.

No FUD, no resolution discussion, no old guard crap. Just a man who makes very pretty pictures finding a new way to make them.

He was concerned IMAX would not hold up, satisfied with the results, curious what more resolution would look like. Most interesting to me is he found himself displeased with the grain film projection added to a picture he was used to seeing without any...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

They barley speek about K's, why even extract it from the conversations as a major theme?

It's interesting to hear how digital cinematography approached him, and why he felt it was ready. And at 12 minutes he explains quite clearly why he likes the Alexa, and why he choose it as an alternative to film... the roll-off in the high lights he says - looked good... and yes, that has been a problem, and still is a problem with most electronic cameras.

Yes, this was a major problem on Red One MX, and less so on the Epic MX, but it's still not perfect with magenta high-lights on unlucky exposures. And it pops more in the high lights than Alexa, and some find that a little uneasy to the eyes...

Also, on K's, he mention you can get too much resolution, images becoming too clear, feeling synthetic - this has been discussed a lot on this forum, and using old glass seems like the preferred solution.

All in all, I found it very interesting. And he is not biased into believing that more resolution is unnecessary...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Competition is good. I love RED, but if Alexa does some things well enough for Roger Deakins to take notice...then I have faith that the RED team are noticing too, and quickly folding these "attributes" into their latest designs (think Dragon). It's the way of the world. RED is a vibrant, competitive company...and they will continue to evolve so the Deakins of the world have no choice but take notice.

The Meizler Module is another important step.

Armed with proxies and a stunning, low light 6K sensor, RED is going to be well poised to win over another generation of important DPs.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I was disappointed when I found out that Skyfall would be filmed on the Alexa by Deakins when production on the movie got started, but I have much too respect for Deakins to hold anything like that against him.

The clips of Skyfall look really, really beautiful to me. The idea of a "personal" cinematographer like Deakins doing a huge-budget action blockbuster is very interesting. I just watched the terrible sci-fi film In Time last night on Blu-ray, and while I was watching it I said, "man, this is a stupid movie, but it looks amazing." I was stunned to see Deakins' name come up in the end credits -- I had no idea he'd done it, because it was kind of a throwaway movie. The cinematography was the only worthwhile thing in it, as far as I'm concerned.

Both 2K and 4K are great...........but 4K is better than 2K.

I'd say it depends on the specific cameras being used. Red vs. Sony? Red One vs. Red Epic? And who's shooting it?

It is funny to me to watch Arri kinda shrug and say that "4K doesn't matter," because you know they'll eventually have a 4K camera to replace the Alexa. I guess then, it'll matter. And I agree, Red is a moving target. If Arri matches what Red does in the summer of 2012, but comes out with the new camera in the summer of 2013... Red may well have moved beyond that.

Still, it's a very insightful interview and Deakins is a very eloquent speaker, plus he knows lenses, exposure, DI, and electronics extremely well. (Don't forget, this was the guy behind O Brother Where Art Thou, which was the first major American film to completely go through a digital intermediate, by Julius Friede over at the late Cinesite in Hollywood.)

 

[Ryan De Franco]

They barley speek about K's, why even extract it from the conversations as a major theme?

This is what makes people boo in Deakins' audience when "other camera systems" were mentioned.

Because here, some of us tend to obsess over our camera's one strength, instead of recognizing where it can improve. The Alexa "architect" never asked Roger about resolution specifically, and as you said John, it was barely a part of the conversation. They focused on his art.

"The actor's face, that's the most important thing to me, watching the light fall on the actor's face."

I understand this was posted because of a Studio Daily headline. And resolution can be important, sure. But it's not what Roger would want anyone remembering from this conversation....

 

[Tim Morten]

Roger Deakins in April 2010: "I would use super 16 rather that the Red camera. I would probably use anything rather than the Red camera!"

Link here: http://www.rogerdeakins.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1367

Since then, he seems to have become an outspoken Alexa advocate.

He's one of the greats, so that's his prerogative, but I can't help but feel like his opinion was colored from the get-go...

- Tim

 

[Ryan De Franco]

2010. Before Redlogfilm. Before MX became synonymous with "the red camera." Back when you had to wait 45 minutes for the computer to boot up and the viewfinder was a small porthole on a very big lasergun.

Now it's 2012 (and I would still rather shoot 16 too!), but when people boo "the other camera," Deakins quietly talks over them... suggesting such nonsense is just that, quickly skipping over Ks and comparisons, saying a few things very simply, more than once:

It's about the human face. And light. And seeing it as it happens, through a mirror, not a cable.

I happen to like the way the MX sensor curdles color and flirts with the surreal. I happen to like the fact that the LCOS viewfinder doesn't look like my lighting or my r3d but a silkier, nonexistant version of both. Roger doesn't. He is no more an Alexa advocate than you or I are a Red "advocate."

 

[Nick Morrison]

2010.
I happen to like the way the MX sensor curdles color and flirts with the surreal. I happen to like the fact that the LCOS viewfinder doesn't look like my lighting or my r3d but a silkier, nonexistant version of both. Roger doesn't. He is no more an Alexa advocate than you or I are a Red "advocate."

Haha, "curdles color" made me laugh. Ryan you have a way of describing the process that I thoroughly enjoy.