WHY is image "SHARP" when shot, & SOFT in post ??

[George D.]

I am VERY concerned about something, and I need the help and advise of those of you who have had extended experience with the Red-One.

I realize that the RAW footage needs tweaking in post via Adobe CS5.5, RedCineX, or some other program, to bring the saturation and contrast back to the way it looked in the original scene. I can live with that if I have to. But, there is something else that is occurring that I just do NOT understand.

As we shoot the scene, and we view it in the Red EVF or the monitor, it appears sharp as a razor, clear and in focus. But, when viewed later in post, NO MATTER WHICH MONITOR I USE, it looks soft and out of focus. WHY ?? If it looked sharp and focused when we shot the scene, why wouldn't it be so later in post?

Am I missing something here? If it was a poor lens, the lousy quality would show up WHEN WE VIEW IT AND SHOOT IT, right? I mean, if it looks good originally, it should look good later, it seems to me.

I am also assuming that what we see is the image "as it is projected onto the sensor" and not through mirrors, etc, BEFORE it gets to the EVF. So, if it was a dirty sensor, which it is NOT, or a low quality lens, etc, we'd see it as we view the shot, not ONLY later in post.

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it, or understand what is happening here, or why we should have this problem at all.

Any help or advise is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time.

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[Dominik Muench]

this is probably just a very small and basic pointer and I'm sure the problem is far more complex than that but have you had a look at the magnification factors of the different programs and the way they display and scale your footage in the viewer ?

I noticed in Photoshop CS6 for example, and it gives me a sacre every time until i remember...when you look at a photo in an odd magnification size for example 33.3%, its always a little fuzzy and out of focus and only gets sharp when I switch to even numbers such as 25/50 or 100%.

 

[George D.]

this is probably just a very small and basic pointer and I'm sure the problem is far more complex than that but have you had a look at the magnification factors of the different programs and the way they display and scale your footage in the viewer ?

I noticed in Photoshop CS6 for example, and it gives me a sacre every time until i remember...when you look at a photo in an odd magnification size for example 33.3%, its always a little fuzzy and out of focus and only gets sharp when I switch to even numbers such as 25/50 or 100%.

The first time I view the footage it is always in RedCineX, then later in CS5.5 for fine editing. It appears soft in both programs.

I'm not sure how to make a "switch to even numbers", but I'll look into it.

Thanks.

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[Costelloe Michael]

Hi George,

For me the first check would be back focus. Use a back focus device for the camera columnation and then hook up to a big monitor for sharps with your choice of lens/lenses. Make sure all your lenses line up. What monitor are you shooting with? Also what monitor do you use for post? I have Dell Ultrasharps for computer and a 32 Plasma for viewing.

 

[George D.]

Hi George,

For me the first check would be back focus. Use a back focus device for the camera columnation and then hook up to a big monitor for sharps with your choice of lens/lenses. Make sure all your lenses line up. What monitor are you shooting with? Also what monitor do you use for post? I have Dell Ultrasharps for computer and a 32 Plasma for viewing.

Thanks Michael, but it is NOT the monitor, or monitors. I can play it back in the same monitor I originally used to shoot it and it still is soft.

Backfocus is not an issue because we use an Allstar A-Mount on the camera, which needs no backfocus adjustment as we change from one lens brand to another. We can go from a Nikon to a Sigma to an Angenieux without messing with the backfocus. That is the main reason I bought the Allstar in the first place.

And, as I said before, if there was problem with the image falling on the sensor, we WOULD see it in the original EVF and monitor FIRST, not just in post.

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[Mike P.]

A couple of things: When viewing on a RED EVF or Monitor, the images is physically tiny (5" for the touch screen), so it'll appear sharper due to supersampling.

The other thing is: Are you sure you're viewing at "Full" resolution? I think the default in both RCX and Premiere is 1/8th playback and pause resolution. If you can, post a .r3d and we'll be able to tell you right away if it's soft or not.

 

[Glen Powell]

What res are you looking at the footage in RedCine? ⅛? ¼? or Full? If you are set to anything less than full, the footage will look soft. Have you exported a clip with a full debayer? What does that look like?

 

[Johnny Friday]

Hi George,

For me the first check would be back focus. Use a back focus device for the camera columnation and then hook up to a big monitor for sharps with your choice of lens/lenses. Make sure all your lenses line up. What monitor are you shooting with? Also what monitor do you use for post? I have Dell Ultrasharps for computer and a 32 Plasma for viewing.

True to a point, but if you have sharp focus, you have it....backfocus will allow you to align your focus marks and and also bring back focus if it's WAY off....but George seems to be saying he gets focus, in the camera and then it's soft when viewed later---strange and assuming you are doing everything correct down the line, then maybe you have a camera issue?

But things i would to to begin with:
1. yes, do a backfocus with your go to lens....I think George you shoot a lot of doc work and nat. hist? Anyway, i'd focus to infinity for my backfocus (you do know how to do a proper back focus?)---and yes, a larger monitor via HDMI out is best...
2. Shoot a test outside to infinity and few other ranges: USE 1:1 focus to make sure you are in focus. & try to close down your iris so you have most your scene in focus and remember WHAT is in focus for testing later.
3. Download and open in RCX and view your images in 1/2 to full REZ and then choose 100% so see the FULL size...move around and check focus.
a. if it's in focus great
b. if it's not in focus, use another machine and another monitor....maybe your monitor is screwed up...but you must begin elimintating WHAT is the problem. sure seems like a hardware problem to me....

....you do know that you need to add sharpening back into R3d yes? and contrast etc...otherwise it will look flat and not sharp.

Examples of Before and After:

[/url] Before: R3d by RedCineUnderwater, on Flickr[/IMG]

[/url] After: R3d by RedCineUnderwater, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Jon Carr]

What Rez are you viewing it at? 1/8 and 1/16 is good for cutting and grading but 1/2 or full is best for focus.

 

[Johnny Friday]

A couple of things: When viewing on a RED EVF or Monitor, the images is physically tiny (5" for the touch screen), so it'll appear sharper due to supersampling.

The other thing is: Are you sure you're viewing at "Full" resolution? I think the default in both RCX and Premiere is 1/8th playback and pause resolution. If you can, post a .r3d and we'll be able to tell you right away if it's soft or not.

Yes, great points indeed.
Also don't assume that because you are using a particular mount that everything is ok....If you don't check it, then you don't know....Almost every lens change you could theoretically do a backfocus adjustment. Also with these mounts that are being sold....if they are off by somthing like .025 in thickness, then this will throw off your ENTIRE focus....I've measured a few now and found MANY not to be within tolerance....This was not known to me until pointed out and why I could NEVER obtain focus to infinity on one of my mounts....then after measuring.....sure enough, problem found and solved by the manufacturer with a new mount. These are such tight tolerances that you MUST check them.

....and yes, checking in RCX at 1/2 and full is a MUST when checking around in the image AND at 100% (NOT fit to screen size).....

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What Rez are you viewing it at? 1/8 and 1/16 is good for cutting and grading but 1/2 or full is best for focus.

I'm going to vote for this as a likely explanation. Many times I have been disappointed with my footage in RCX until I realize it's debatering at 1/8 or less. Bump it up to full, even if just to see a still, and see if it isn't better.

 

[George D.]

Yes, great points indeed.
Also don't assume that because you are using a particular mount that everything is ok....If you don't check it, then you don't know....Almost every lens change you could theoretically do a backfocus adjustment. Also with these mounts that are being sold....if they are off by somthing like .025 in thickness, then this will throw off your ENTIRE focus....I've measured a few now and found MANY not to be within tolerance....This was not known to me until pointed out and why I could NEVER obtain focus to infinity on one of my mounts....then after measuring.....sure enough, problem found and solved by the manufacturer with a new mount. These are such tight tolerances that you MUST check them.

....and yes, checking in RCX at 1/2 and full is a MUST when checking around in the image AND at 100% (NOT fit to screen size).....

Thanks to you all, and especially Johnny for such a complete answer.

I will check these things, especially the A-Mount, but, as I previously pointed out, if my focus was OFF wouldn't I see it in the original image on the "HD 23" monitor" & "Red EVF" which I use to view the scene at the time of shooting? This large monitor is right along side the camera when we shoot in our studio. I am not using a little 5" monitor to view with.

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[Yousuf Abbasi]

I'm going to vote for this as a likely explanation. Many times I have been disappointed with my footage in RCX until I realize it's debatering at 1/8 or less. Bump it up to full, even if just to see a still, and see if it isn't better.

Yup, by default I think RCX shows footage at 1/8 which is verrrry soft. Makes a HUGE difference switching from 1/8 to Full.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Thanks to you all, and especially Johnny for such a complete answer.

I will check these things, especially the A-Mount, but, as I previously pointed out, if my focus was OFF wouldn't I see it in the original image on the "HD 23" monitor" & "Red EVF" which I use to view the scene at the time of shooting? This large monitor is right along side the camera when we shoot in our studio. I am not using a little 5" monitor to view with.

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Yes, if it's in focus, it should be in focus...but as many have pointed out....very easily can be your viewing rez on RCX...and you did you say you were also looking in premier and it's soft? but back to backfocus...if you have sharp focus...then you have it....if you don't need focus marks to match actual distance, and you get sharp focus all the way around, then it should be sharp in the actual R3d....
....please do report back findings.....

 

[Ivan Kovax]

GEORGE D.

Can you please post a link to a 4-5K rez TIFF and an R3D of this problematic footage so that we may see what exactly you are dealing with? It would help tremendously in giving you a speedier and more accurate answer if we could see what you are seeing.

Thanks

Ivan

EDIT: Are you pixel peeping at 100% in your focus checks, or doing it by eye via the monitor?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Monitors and viewfinders on set generally have some level of edge enhancement turned on, plus I have no idea if the HD signal from the camera also has some level of edge enhancement being applied as a default.

 

[jimhare]

Any George, remember that RED does no artificial sharpening so it isn't considered bad form to add a bit in post if needed. You can do this in RCX Pro using UNSHARP mask or do it while editing. Sometimes it makes all the difference.

 

[egon touste]

if by "sharp on the evf" .. you mean you had peaking etc switched on, and checked your sharps.. then maybe you have a problem.. but much more likely is the footage looks soft in post because you shot everything "slightly out of focus" (it happens occationally).. the evf is roughly 720p.. the raw files are 4-5k .. you CANNOT GAUGE SHARPNESS/FOCUS from an evf without help ie, peaking or such tools.. or by knowing your distances.. it doesn't sound like a sharpness issue, rather focus.

An unsharp mask is not going to help hugely, the good news is, if you downsample to 1080p etc.. it will most probably look sharp again

 

[Johnny Friday]

if by "sharp on the evf" .. you mean you had peaking etc switched on, and checked your sharps.. then maybe you have a problem.. but much more likely is the footage looks soft in post because you shot everything "slightly out of focus" (it happens occationally).. the evf is roughly 720p.. the raw files are 4-5k .. you CANNOT GAUGE SHARPNESS/FOCUS from an evf without help ie, peaking or such tools.. or by knowing your distances.. it doesn't sound like a sharpness issue, rather focus.

An unsharp mask is not going to help hugely, the good news is, if you downsample to 1080p etc.. it will most probably look sharp again

I have to FULLY disagree with your statement that you cannot gauge sharpness on an EVF.....This is something nat. hist doc folks have been doing for a long time. I do it for many years using Red 1 and now epic....we have enough tools with 1:1 to gauge focus and with enough time and practice with our tools, we should know what in focus looks like....and you should know how to find focus on your system by whatever method you employ.----some methods are better than others

 

[Peter Strietmann]

+1 to Johnny Friday's reply. If one can't trust a viewfinder why even bother rolling?