Underwater Case for Epic/Scarlet

[Kevin Gansemans]

Does anyone know where I can rent a underwater case near belgium/netherlands. Or how much it cost to buy one?

Cheers,

 

[David W. Jones]

While this does not help finding a housing, be sure to watch your camera temperature when enclosing an Epic/Scarlet in a sealed environment without any air circulation.

 

[Ross Isaacs]

While this does not help finding a housing, be sure to watch your camera temperature when enclosing an Epic/Scarlet in a sealed environment without any air circulation.

Not really a problem as the housing is externally water cooled. I have never had my Deep Red over heat underwater and I live in the tropics.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

I am taking delivery of an EPIC housing this week and am located in france, I could make it available to you in Paris by friday. Email me via clay (at) haskellfilms (dot) com if your interested.
cheers

 

[bryanpapierski]

What housing is water cooled. Any pictures?

 

[Jason Sinclair]

All housings are water cooled no? They go under water.

I personally would try deep x if i was going to buy.

It's great size. It's built by a underwater cinematographer and deep sea diver who is also an engineer. It's a very good price point. It uses nikonos lenses which can be interchanged underwater and are easy to buy and low cost. Also these lenses were built for underwater use.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikonos-...FILM_CAMERAS&hash=item19d1ada409#ht_500wt_949

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800779825-USE/Nikonos_10310_28mm_f_3_5_UW_Nikkor_IC.html

The nikon lenses also mean no dome port is needed so the light refraction from the glass at angles means greater edge resolution.

"An air-corrected wide-angle lens behind a dome port, no matter how expensive, will always give lower edge resolution than a properly water-corrected lens. This is due to the introduction of chromatic aberration at the air-water boundary"

From: http://www.camerasunderwater.co.uk/nikonos

"Many Nikonos lenses, the "UW" series, were specifically designed for underwater use with water directly contacting the lens. It is said that, even to this day, no underwater camera system matches the Nikonos lenses for sharpness and color saturation underwater."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikonos

That's what i would buy.

http://achtel.com/DeepX/index.htm

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Thanks Jason,

Yes, we have just released DeepX. It is the smallest housing for the Epic/Scarlet available. It is also the only housing that can resolve 5k underwater and the only one that does not introduce any distortions.

 

[Will Keir]

Hey Pawel, how much are you selling these for?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Hey Will,

They are $20k without the lens and $21k with a serviced Nikonos 15mm. They are now sold by Band Pro, Burbank.

The package includes titanium side handles and titanium bottom (or top, they fit either way) rails.

If you are quick, there is one listed on eBay that is still at the introductory price of $15,750 and, if you are really quick, I have one with me in LA now. I'm going back to Sydney tomorrow (Wednesday) late afternoon.

I had a pleasure diving with Bob Cranston and Peter Kragh off Catalina yesterday and Bob absolutely loves it. He said that this is what he wants to use for his Epic, which he took underwater for the first time inside the DeepX. He thinks it is the best housing for the Epic, so I'm obviously very happy to hear this coming from Bob.

 

[Michael Hastings]

All housings are water cooled no? They go under water.

I personally would try deep x if i was going to buy.

It's great size. It's built by a underwater cinematographer and deep sea diver who is also an engineer. It's a very good price point. It uses nikonos lenses which can be interchanged underwater and are easy to buy and low cost. Also these lenses were built for underwater use.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nikonos-...FILM_CAMERAS&hash=item19d1ada409#ht_500wt_949

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800779825-USE/Nikonos_10310_28mm_f_3_5_UW_Nikkor_IC.html

The nikon lenses also mean no dome port is needed so the light refraction from the glass at angles means greater edge resolution.

"An air-corrected wide-angle lens behind a dome port, no matter how expensive, will always give lower edge resolution than a properly water-corrected lens. This is due to the introduction of chromatic aberration at the air-water boundary"

From: http://www.camerasunderwater.co.uk/nikonos

"Many Nikonos lenses, the "UW" series, were specifically designed for underwater use with water directly contacting the lens. It is said that, even to this day, no underwater camera system matches the Nikonos lenses for sharpness and color saturation underwater."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikonos

That's what i would buy.

http://achtel.com/DeepX/index.htm

Quite a bit of misinformation there...

Nikonos lenses aren't interchangeable underwater. (And no zoom lenses - so always stuck with a single focal length.)

You also fail to mention that the widest non-fisheye - the famous 15mm - is really a 20mm and has an angle of view of 94 degrees on full frame 36x24 mm 35mm SLR sized film but only 75 degrees on Epic 5K and only 63 degrees on 4K. (this is a very significant reason why you should consider keeping your epic and not swapping for a 4K only Scarlet). 94 degrees would be sufficient however even then it is not as wide as almost all modern (i.e. 1990s and later) professional underwater rigs where 100 to 110 degrees is common with rectilinear lenses.

You also should have put the whole quote for the "An air corrected..." quote, it paints a much different picture for digital photography:

Full quote:
"One of the principal advantages of the Nikonos system was the availability of water-corrected lenses, which (before the advent of software radial correction) always gave a higher resolution than an equivalent air-corrected lens mounted behind a port.

An air-corrected wide-angle lens behind a dome port, no matter how expensive, will always give lower edge resolution than a properly water-corrected lens. This is due to the introduction of chromatic aberration at the air-water boundary. If the camera is a digital camera however, or if the film is to be scanned, it is possible to correct for chromatic aberration using software. If software correction is applied, a good air-corrected lens can be turned into a good water-corrected lens, and results similar to or better than those obtained with UW-Nikkor lenses can easily be achieved."

And this quote may have been true a long time ago when it was written:

"Many Nikonos lenses, the "UW" series, were specifically designed for underwater use with water directly contacting the lens. It is said that, even to this day, no underwater camera system matches the Nikonos lenses for sharpness and color saturation underwater." and this part of your post "The nikon lenses also mean no dome port is needed" is misleading since the Nikonos 15 also uses a dome, with additional internal correction for the refocusing and aberrations. In fact the reason the actual 20mm lens is called a 15mm Nikonos is that when it was introduced decades ago there were almost always only flat ports - so they called it a 15mm since it was equivalent to a 15mm behind a flat port! But in the past 15 years or so (since the Nikonos died) there have been several fully corrected optics sold that approach or exceed the Nikonos 15 (Expensive, but not as much as a Deep-X). Since the overwhelming majority of professional underwater motion pictures were being shot with 2/3" or smaller sensors, it is only recently that those designs are being scaled up to work with the larger sensors in our Scarlets and Epics.

I know this is repetitious, but you and Pawel are also being repetitious in promotion to newcomers without adequately acknowledging the serious limitations of using lenses designed for a much larger format - in a medium (underwater) that demands getting as wide a field of view as you can reasonably get. In most situations the much greater color saturation and overall clarity you get with shooting with 90+ degree field of view and therefore through a shorter water column, will outweigh the increased sharpness on the edges that you might get with the Nikonos lens.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Does anyone know where I can rent a underwater case near belgium/netherlands. Or how much it cost to buy one?

Cheers,

Kevin: You can buy a very nice Epic housing for between $5800 and $8000. We rent for $550/day $1900/week, with flexibility for travel time.

We have a couple rental units on hand and new ones in process that can be completed in a just a couple of days.

Not quite as pretty as Pawel's but in some ways more functional, tested in use by multiple owners for over a year, and less than half the price.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

There is a lot of disinformation in Michael's post.

Firstly, chromatic aberration is mostly relevant to flat ports. A 14mm lens behind a flat port has not only a narrower field of view than the Nikonos 15mm, but creates chromatic aberrations exceeding 18 pixels that are not possible to correct in software or in any other way. It also creates severe distortions. According to my measurements and theoretical calculations, such system fails to resolve even fraction of standard definition in the corners.

Domes, however, create image plane curvature resulting in soft edges. On S35 sensor and 90 degree view even the best terrestial lenses fail to resolve standard definition around the edges. For wider angles, it gets worse, much worse. For wider sensor, it gets worse expotentially.

Nikonos 15mm does not "use a dome". It was designed specifically for underwater use and does not suffer from image field curvature that otherwise is created by a dome port.

There is no evidence that 2/3" chips were able to resolve even standard definition across the entire frame whether through dome ports or any other optics. Certainly, not at 100 or 110 degrees.

We all care about image quality, but it strikes me that no other manufacturer is prepared to publish any data of the optical performance. The facts speak for themselves.

Of course, opinions vary. Our competitors see "serious limitations", others, like Bob Cranston, see it as the best underwater housing ever made.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Jason,

Yes, we have just released DeepX. It is the smallest housing for the Epic/Scarlet available. It is also the only housing that can resolve 5k underwater and the only one that does not introduce any distortions.

This rig looks awesome, a bit too pricey for me but like how small it is.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

I am not promoting this product. I just think it is cool. (But if Pawel want to give me one for the work i have done i wouldn't say no

Pawel mentioned this product to me at a Red meet when it was in its early stages over a year ago. I was impressed. I do not work for this company and have no relation to it. However i find Pawel extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and a person who's prime interest is always the best possible picture. I find these people rare and when i find them i support them.

Michael i think your product is good too. I didn't realize that there was video software to correct the chromatic aberrations. I think if this was available for 5k i would like to know processing times and also the results.

However, for me i like primes so working with the nikonos lenses is a no brainer over a zoom. Also, using software to correct issues doesn't appear to me to be a good solution but would love to see the results if you have any.

Also these lenses were invented for underwater use and are legendary. We have all seen the results from years of national geographic. They are super clear.

I am gathering too that the distance between the last lens element and the port dome is very important in the increase in chromatic aberration.

I was under the assumption you could change these lenses underwater. Maybe Pawel can chime in if i got my information wrong???

Like i said. This is the system i would go for in that price bracket. If i had less money to spend i would choose something cheaper of course. As always, test.

 

[David Nardini]

I can assure you cannot change prime Nikonos lenses underwater (the range finder lenses were : 15mm, 20mm, 28mm, 35mm and 80mm ... these are not to be confused with the Nikonos RS lenses ... different glass).

You might be thinking of wide angle adapters or close up diopter kits that were available for the 28mm, 35mm & 80mm Nikonos lenses ... these were indeed wet systems and could be swapped underwater.

In my experience, nothing comes close to the UNDERWATER optical performance of the 15mm (and, in my experience I've never seen any wet lenses that work with the 15mm).

David.

PS : Late June will be in the RedSea testing out the 15mm of an Epic also ;-)

 

[Will Keir]

Yeah, I am just a little behind you in time but looking forward to some underwater shots soon. Does any place in LA rent your gear?

Hey Will,

They are $20k without the lens and $21k with a serviced Nikonos 15mm. They are now sold by Band Pro, Burbank.

The package includes titanium side handles and titanium bottom (or top, they fit either way) rails.

If you are quick, there is one listed on eBay that is still at the introductory price of $15,750 and, if you are really quick, I have one with me in LA now. I'm going back to Sydney tomorrow (Wednesday) late afternoon.

I had a pleasure diving with Bob Cranston and Peter Kragh off Catalina yesterday and Bob absolutely loves it. He said that this is what he wants to use for his Epic, which he took underwater for the first time inside the DeepX. He thinks it is the best housing for the Epic, so I'm obviously very happy to hear this coming from Bob.

 

[Will Keir]

i find Pawel extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and a person who's prime interest is always the best possible picture.

Yeah Pawel seems to be on his game in the foreign world of under water photography. I would like to engineer underwater housings like this but the insurance company would stop paying for all the ruined epics eventually.

20k is out of my budget currently, wish you guys could offer a solution for half, maybe something with a limited depth option better than a plastic bag?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Yeah, I am just a little behind you in time but looking forward to some underwater shots soon. Does any place in LA rent your gear?

PM sent

Hey Pawel I am curious if you would publish Bob's report on using DeepX in full please?

http://www.bandpro.com/news-a-events/244-deepx-bob-cranston.html

Bob is currently filming for television and uses his HD-CAM rig. He has no need for Epic housing at present. He said to me that if he had a feature, he would like to film it with DeepX. He liked it better for the flexibility, size and image quality over the Gates Deep Epic (of which he spoke highly). It was this comment that made me very happy because his first choice is essentially my dream housing that I designed with all my skill, experience and pretty much unlimited manufacturing capability and expense. We seem to like it for the same reasons. Bob sounded like a kid in a toy store when he experienced how low he could place DeepX to get very low angle shots, which he couldn't do with any other housing.

I can assure you cannot change prime Nikonos lenses underwater (the range finder lenses were : 15mm, 20mm, 28mm, 35mm and 80mm ... these are not to be confused with the Nikonos RS lenses ... different glass)....

Correct. You can also add Sea and Sea 12mm fish eye that's pretty good and not overly distorting on S35 sensor. And, for those still feeling limited, there is Aqualens dome port that allows just about any wide angle manual Nikon land lens to be placed behind a dome...albeit resulting in an inevitable image plane curvature caused by the dome port like all other housings.

We are working on an RS electronic adapter for DeepX. I think the zoom and the RS fisheye are worth the effort.