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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

An idea' a favor

P

Peter Lyons Collister ASC

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Jim and Red have won the 4K discussion. All the manufacturers have announced 4K cameras except Arri.

And I would argue that In the large budget and medium budget world there are only 4 choices the studios take seriously; Alexa, Epic, F65 and film. (yes film)

Where there seems to be a disconnect is in the TV episodic world and the TV commercial world. I would say Alexa has over a 75% share.
It's a great camera and I believe arguing for 4K in that world is wasted effort. It took 2 weeks of serious effort for me to convince the producers/studios to let me shoot Epic on a simple NBC Sarah Silverman pilot.

Commercial producers and directors ASSUME Alexa. Now the talents of folks like Chris Probst in his hi end commercials and Francis Kenny with Justified have won some battles for Epic but I believe this is where some of us can work to educate directors and producers and post folks that another film stock exists..

Jim and Red pushed 4K and pushed other companies to cut their camera prices by 70%. Schwartzman and I convinced Sony to allow us to shoot spiderman with a beta version of the Epic.

Now some efforts need to be made to make bigger inroads into TV.

Help us help ourselves.

Thanks for reading this rambling essay.


Humbly,

Peter
 
Was on the set of LOUIE a few weeks ago, and they were using two Epics, very run and gun style, under the photographic direction of Paul Koestner - I hope more episodic TV shows realize that this camera is fast and the post production is just as quick.

PS It's a great show . . .
 
I am an Epic owner, and former Red MX owner, so I'm all in on the Red bandwagon, but I personally can't see an obvious reason to not shoot Alexa for television. As you said yourself, the 4K argument is unconvincing for the small screen, and shooting ProRes natively saves time and money on post.
As a more informed party on the subject, maybe you should outline the major advantages of Epic for television, because they aren't obvious to me.
 
Television pipeline is the hardest and most difficult. their systems are the slowest to change, investment in cutting edge technology is very reserved, and they usually source out a lot of what they do to third party rather than do it in house. (transcoding, laying off to tape, dubs, basics, visual effects, etc. etc.)

if stations haven't even given up tape like hdcam sr at this point already, it's gonna be even slower road for 4k. not to be a pessimist, but just talking about what I've seen over the years. some smaller companies that deal with half the reality content out there are using 8 year old avids, still doing offline edits in standard def, and only conforming to HD off of one symphony in house, with a nearly maxed out unity server.

I think really to make the big swing, it's mostly in the producer's hands. the post houses have a lot of sway in convincing production to go a certain way, but it's usually the people WITH the money that have the final word and they need to be proven and clearly shown the advantages of going the 4k route. My 2 cents on that is things trickle from the top. once everybody in hollywood only decides on 4k for everything they shoot, the decision in broadcast will slowly creep its way in more and more.

but of course, the biggest debacle is how do you air 4k? there's only so much bandwidth to go around, we barely air anything past 720p as is. only way I can see it right now is internet streaming 4k to your television now. and that's a whole new business model right there...
 
I'm a TV producer with a small national outdoor sports show under my belt. Compared to the likes of the RED Team or ASC cinematographers, I don't know squat. However, I do know the shows I've produced and shot would have been worlds better with the option to hammer out 90% of the footage with a RED ProRes module, then hand pick clips to work with in 4K RAW such as shots for VFX, extreme CC, stabilization or other creative uses including stills extraction.

I've got a massive amount of respect for the industry intuition and insight at RED. That said, it seems like the general objection they give to the idea of a ProRes module is that there's no point in working backwards to facilitiate HD acquisition, which is valid. Also seems valid to consider the idea that content producers who are stuck in the HD world of today could more easily use RED cameras with a ProRes module now, but would then quickly begin to look forward and discover the options provided by 5K/4K RAW in their shows. In other words, a RED ProRes module could be a step forward away from today's HD standards instead of simply a step back towards them. But like I said, I don't know squat...
 
I fear we live in something of a "throw away" society and I think this short-sighted, (IMO) attitude applies to television content as well. I wonder if the folks who made I Love Lucy or Seinfeld or Friends felt that their work wasn't important enough to be saved and resurrected for posterity at the time?. If the producers of today's TV shows believe their work is going to last, and worth preserving, then I think they really should consider shooting in 4K or beyond. 4K may not be "forever," as technology will keep marching on, but it is the best we have now and is best suited to yield high quality results when the show is resurrected 20 years from now.

Just my thoughts...
 
The sad part about TV is that there are still A LOT of stations still only broadcasting in SD.

But Terry has a good point. Everybody Loves Raymond reruns looks just as good as a new episode. It's because it was shot on film and film has a much higher resolution than 1080p, much closer to 4K or 5K. So if you want your show to have a lot of reruns in the next 10 years shoot with as much resolution as possible.

And can't wait to see the new season of Louie. I'm happy he won best TV Director at Comedy Central's Comic Awards. He's one funny mother fucker.
 
In terms of sheer numbers of TV programs worldwide each year mobile EFP style (non-hardlined) programs acquired in the field and edited in post far outnumber TV episodic and TV commercial productions. For these mobile EFP style programs Red One has been used extensively since 2007, and Epic for well over a year now. How do I know this? This style of TV programs is my work specialty - I don't do narrative television or features - I produce, direct, and shoot mobile EFP TV programs. I also judge the Emmy Awards for these types of TV programs - Sports, Documentary, etc. - and with a trained eye its easy to pick out what kind of camera system was used.

Mobile EFP style TV programs have smaller budgets, have longer time frame editing turnarounds, have small on-location crews, require small camera systems for increased mobility, can be shot using 35mm still lenses, are usually sight focused, and quite often need high frame rates. Epic is tailor made for this kind of work - much more so than Alexa. These programs shot with Epic are usually shot in 4kHD, and occasionally in 3k, given a one light, edited, then resampled down to 1080p for delivery. The great thing is the 4kHD show masters long life potential, and the footage is quite valuable as stock footage - again with a long shelf life.

Alexa may have a larger share of the TV Episodic and TV Commercial productions - but for the reasons I listed in the paragraph above IMO Epic has a much bigger share of mobile EFP style TV production than Alexa. Shooting to RGB with a ProRes module isn't really necessary for longer turnaround mobile EFP programs - raw is excellent, in fact it extends the value and usability of the footage generated. The flexibility and shelf life of raw trumps the baked in values and shorter shelf life of RGB shooting for these mobile TV genres - sports, wildlife, documentaries of various kinds, cultures, lifestyle, food, nature, and many more genres. Obviously in the mobile EFP TV arena 1080 RGB shooting cameras made by Sony and Panasonic are widespread - but with Epic the flexibility of shooting raw, and higher frame rate capability has Epic consistently carving out a larger market share in those genres.

Horses for courses my friends...
 
Steve Gibby said:
... Alexa may have a larger share of the TV Episodic and TV Commercial productions - but for the reasons I listed in the paragraph above IMO Epic has a much bigger share of mobile EFP style TV production than Alexa.Shooting to RGB with a ProRes module isn't really necessary for longer turnaround mobile EFP programs - raw is excellent, in fact it extends the value and usability of the footage generated. The flexibility and shelf life of raw trumps the baked in values and shorter shelf life of RGB shooting for these mobile TV genres - sports, wildlife, documentaries of various kinds, cultures, lifestyle, food, nature, and many more genres.
Click to expand...

In that same vein, reality TV normally doesn't use Alexis ... and your comments on the advantage of RAW are very applicable on how the footage is sent back to the central location. Another huge advantage of RAW 4k is cropping/stabilize/panning for 1080 frame (it's hard to get everything in the shot in reality, and normally people "speak" farther apart so you can't get the standard two head shot). Perhaps not as sexy, but a scarlet with a dragon sensor might be a better beach head to mass market TV and complex channel distributions ... AND reality TV is around 50% of the market.
 
"I personally can't see an obvious reason to not shoot Alexa for television. As you said yourself, the 4K argument is unconvincing for the small screen, and shooting ProRes natively saves time and money on post. "



Perhaps the most obvious is the onslaught of monitor manufacturers going 2k and 4k...there were plenty at CES...Not to mention more obvous is what is being shot for the home TV is being watched on IPads on lunchbreaks and thats already 2k...
 
Douglas Underdahl said:
Was on the set of LOUIE a few weeks ago, and they were using two Epics, very run and gun style, under the photographic direction of Paul Koestner - I hope more episodic TV shows realize that this camera is fast and the post production is just as quick.

PS It's a great show . . .
Click to expand...

I LOVE Louie! The reason is Louis CK produces his own show, has complete carte blanche, and he bought is own Epics.

For having worked in TV for years, I can say a lot of the format dictatorship comes from the post people. TV and other companies involved in the TV business have a lot more money invested in post equipment than any other category. They have post suite left and right, more than they can use. Cameras come and go. Post sticks like a bad stain because it's so expensive and it's solid: it's build in the house... They seldom own cameras, so they want the camera that accommodates their gear the easiest. Period. They don't care so much for resolution, depth of field and stuff like that... A post production supervisor or editor WORKING FOR TV will always go for the less hassle. And until there's an alternative to the Red Rocket card, there's little we can do to convince people about RAW in TV. It's too damn long to transcode. And NOBODY in this world knows about the Rocket. It's like "oh now we need to buy another expensive and very specific piece of gear just to accommodate this one job. That we may never use again?" I personally think the Rocket should be sold with the camera, in a box, like the Station. And rental companies should have them for rental, like with EVERY camera, just like the station. It's irresponsible today to not use the Rocket with Red footage. I know it's expensive for most folks, but there lies the whole problem for me. With the Rocket, you can output Prores in no time, over coffee. Get that solved and Red will kill the 4K fear in no time.

2 years ago, before I had my Red Rocket, I shot a commercial for a theme park. One week shoot. It took around 7 weeks to down convert. I was running out of arguments with the client. He still doesn't believe me. He never worked with me again. It was my second job for them. They all agreed it was the best footage they ever had, the most beautiful work they ever worked with. But they just don't have time. Now they work with guys with 5Ds, are they're very happy.

But I fight this battle with you everyday Peter!
 
if shooting prores is important then i guess BMD cinema is going to kill the alexa at a fraction of the price?
 
Alexa records 10 bit Pro Res which is ready for immediate edit and the workflow is simple and cost effective.

The Epic workflow is more complicated in producers eyes if not actually in reality, so I think having the ability to record a full quality Pro Res or equivalent would make the TV "sell" a lot easier. TV commissioners really are not interested in hearing about 4K, all they want is 1080p - sad but a fact!

We've used RED for TV work from day one BUT we are self contained and make our own acquisition choices.

Scott
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
Jim and Red have won the 4K discussion. All the manufacturers have announced 4K cameras except Arri.

And I would argue that In the large budget and medium budget world there are only 4 choices the studios take seriously; Alexa, Epic, F65 and film. (yes film)

Where there seems to be a disconnect is in the TV episodic world and the TV commercial world. I would say Alexa has over a 75% share.
It's a great camera and I believe arguing for 4K in that world is wasted effort. It took 2 weeks of serious effort for me to convince the producers/studios to let me shoot Epic on a simple NBC Sarah Silverman pilot.

Commercial producers and directors ASSUME Alexa. Now the talents of folks like Chris Probst in his hi end commercials and Francis Kenny with Justified have won some battles for Epic but I believe this is where some of us can work to educate directors and producers and post folks that another film stock exists..

Jim and Red pushed 4K and pushed other companies to cut their camera prices by 70%. Schwartzman and I convinced Sony to allow us to shoot spiderman with a beta version of the Epic.

Now some efforts need to be made to make bigger inroads into TV.

Help us help ourselves.

Thanks for reading this rambling essay.


Humbly,

Peter
Click to expand...

I am still a baby in the business, but about to be eligible for my MFA and have been shooting for awhile now. Hearing things around campus is interesting and not only has the camera in question become popular because of the Pro Res thing but oddly or not, so have camera like DSLR on large TV productions. Scarlet and Epic should kill both of these within the next few years... Things take time...

- PE
 
I am confused at the comments saying that Alexa is a faster, cheaper workflow.....??
Why do you think ProRes 4:4:4 Log-C files are ready to cut?
Of all the Commercials, and TV series I've worked on, NOT ONE post house will accept ProRes444 Log-C files for their offline.
They all expect the footage to be colored and transcoded to the version of their choosing before they will put it on their timeline.
So what makes Alexa better?
I can color and Transcode Red 4K footage fast with a Red Rocket, or I can Color and Transcode Alexa footage fast with Davinci. Either way, I am doing the same thing to the footage from either camera.
And BTW while we're talking about it, 4k sampled down to 1080P DOES look sharper and cleaner than starting with a 1080P print..

So can someone explain to me WHY I would shoot the Alexa over an Epic?
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
Jim and Red have won the 4K discussion. All the manufacturers have announced 4K cameras except Arri.

And I would argue that In the large budget and medium budget world there are only 4 choices the studios take seriously; Alexa, Epic, F65 and film. (yes film)

Where there seems to be a disconnect is in the TV episodic world and the TV commercial world. I would say Alexa has over a 75% share.
It's a great camera and I believe arguing for 4K in that world is wasted effort. It took 2 weeks of serious effort for me to convince the producers/studios to let me shoot Epic on a simple NBC Sarah Silverman pilot.

Commercial producers and directors ASSUME Alexa. Now the talents of folks like Chris Probst in his hi end commercials and Francis Kenny with Justified have won some battles for Epic but I believe this is where some of us can work to educate directors and producers and post folks that another film stock exists..

Jim and Red pushed 4K and pushed other companies to cut their camera prices by 70%. Schwartzman and I convinced Sony to allow us to shoot spiderman with a beta version of the Epic.

Now some efforts need to be made to make bigger inroads into TV.

Help us help ourselves.

Thanks for reading this rambling essay.


Humbly,

Peter
Click to expand...


Even so not only my country, Italy, but all of Europe and the north, belong to Arri, do partly to the absurd amount of campaigning they do, and the insane deals the Rental houses give for the Alexa, practically giving it away, and partly do the great ignorance the Producers, Directors and Rental houses alike have here in this side of the ocean, about R3D and RED true capacity and differences in the better, the market for RED is a very hard one.

Still, just the same we will be producing a TV series and a TV DocuFilm series on RED EPIC cameras, but the change here, also for Cinema use, will not happen till there is a solid RED facility were any one and every one can go to be tough about RED and R3D workflow.


Hopefully soon in off we'll have a RED ITALY as a special facility for all of Europe and the north to come to and learn about RED and see its true power form Form Factor, to Resolution, Dynamic Range, Post Production capacity to handle anything they can trow at it and so on.

Till then the fight here is not just hard for TV, is hard for anything, including MOvies, which are getting shot on Arri Alexa, and not even Raw, and DSLR cameras... :(
 
We have recently created a seamless workflow for CBS/ 60 Minutes & 48 Hours as well as NBC/Rock Center. We're also delivering DNXHD or Pro Res files immediately with the Pix 240. One of the reasons that we've had this "battle" is that many have delivered RED files to editors that had no real workflow and were up against a deadline to deliver an edited piece. The nightmare comes from the editor that has never worked with or isn't prepared to work with RED files. We've removed that issue and our clients now love shooting RED. In ten years, 60 Minutes will be delighted that they shot in 4 or 5K vs. 2K.
 
Lewis-M Soucy said:
I LOVE Louie! The reason is Louis CK produces his own show, has complete carte blanche, and he bought is own Epics.
Click to expand...

Louis was dangerously close to switching over to Alexa for season 3, but due to factors like size/weight/resolution, he decided to invest in Epic. In short, he wanted to own a camera package, to be free to shoot other projects on the side without requiring a giant crew and gear checkout. And he's done a pretty fine job of building such a package (including some enviable lens options). Regardless of current delivery specs (FX takes 720p), Louis does care about his show in an archival sense, in which case 4K redcode raw is a lovely capture medium. And while we currently operate largely in a 1080p world, he's taken advantage of the ability to crop in on a shot when we might not have all the coverage he finds he wants in the edit, and I know Paul (the DP) has taken comfort in knowing we have some extra resolution to kick around if we need to do some stabilization in post.

While I would have to acknowledge that with its Alexa, Arri has managed to add a degree of refinement beyond where the Epic currently is, I can't imagine this show, given how it's run day in and day out, being shot on a camera twice the size (without even bringing a Codex into the mix). Everyone has been very pleased with the Epic's performance this season (we've had very few, minor issues, if any really), the SSD mags are rock solid and a dream in our myriad shooting scenarios, and while the camera is built up a bit in our standard configuration with a camwave and preston wireless setup, we're able to strip the camera down whenever necessary and go all the places that no professional camera has gone before (at least in my finite experience ;)...smaller support, less weights on the famous SevenJib (the shooting style of this show owes much recognition to Doug Underdahl), and greater longevity and chance of survival for Paul's aging body. More than anything, with the flexibility of redcode raw and the tiny size of the camera, we can stay limber and move quickly, which I imagine pleases Louis greatly.

Sorry to take this earnest plea from Mr. Collister off on a tangent, but I think it's important to know that even small TV shows can make this camera and workflow work in their favor. It just takes a little effort on the front end to make it easy on the back end. A rocket is a definite help, if not a necessity. In the absence of that, something like the PIX 240 should make it come together like a charm. But it does take cooperation from our post counterparts...if they remain resistant, we don't have much hope in choosing a camera for the right reasons.

One thing is for sure: Red has made an incredible camera that can be put to work in many different scenarios with excellent results. Getting people to recognize the relative ease in workflow with modest planning will be a big part of seeing more of a market penetration. An inexpensive rocket solution would most certainly be the fastest way to seeing this come to fruition.
 
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