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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Challenge to Zacuto...

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Nik Harper said:
What do you mean by this? I think there might be a typo, but I'm not sure.
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No typo.

I really like the RED cams for a lot of reasons. The resolution is just added bonus and makes some additional applications, but not the main reason for coosing them for most of the larger jobs I am invoved with.

For me personally, the resolution is of some importance. At least more than the high FPS.

But what do I know?

I am only overseeing the finnish of my 3rd 100 days shooting production in a year these days, and we just wrapped a 112 shootingdays dual EWpic shoot... (of course I haven't been out on all of them at once, but still supervising workflows and signalchains...)

Point being:
Resolution and high fps has not been the reasons for choosing RED for any of those productions.

General imageperformance and flexibility of workflows have, though...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
No typo.

I really like the RED cams for a lot of reasons. The resolution is just added bonus and makes some additional applications, but not the main reason for coosing them for most of the larger jobs I am invoved with.

For me personally, the resolution is of some importance. At least more than the high FPS.

But what do I know?

I am only overseeing the finnish of my 3rd 100 days shooting production in a year these days, and we just wrapped a 112 shootingdays dual EWpic shoot... (of course I haven't been out on all of them at once, but still supervising workflows and signalchains...)

Point being:
Resolution and high fps has not been the reasons for choosing RED for any of those productions.

General imageperformance and flexibility of workflows have, though...
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Oh I wasn't saying that to attack you, the sentence was worded in an odd way.

But of course you're correct, there are different cameras for different jobs
 
And the flexibility and general image performance of RED cameras make them good for many gigs. Even though we have other cameras rolling constantly, too... :)

I don't mean to diminish the importance of + 1080 or high fps, but practically, for most of the productions I am seeing, those are not the reasons it is chosen for.

How the Epic performs over its full DR, HDRx, image robustness in post and VFX, internal recorder, low mass, compressed RAW, flexibility of application and general imagequality throughout its exposurerange are more tipping points, than high FPS or number of pixels. Formatrobustness (compressed RAW) vs bandwith + 16 bit internal (at least) processing, have much more practical value to us.

For others - of course - pixelcount and high FPS are the tipping factors. I just don't see that as often... :)


Point is:
High pixelcount and high fps is a bit oversold, and also quite easy to (rightfully or not) tear down as arguments when comparing to other systems. I am not saying they are unimportant.
But the general flexibility and imagequality delivered by the Epic, is rather hard to overlook.

I can understand why a lot of DPs get upset by numbers and testcharts, because that is not what they "do".
Images, though - are harder to turn own, and overexposures in particular...
 
How about this - the zacuto test is all about fairness and treating all the cameras the same, right?

So if the epics get downscaled 2.6 times to become 1080p, so the other cameras should be downscaled by the same and then we'll compare the images?

Gets around the 4k presentation problem and we get a completely fair test ;)
 
George Tsai said:
maybe if you provided them with a 4K display system or have the final showcased at Red Studio, I can't imagine Zacuto rejecting that offer:-P
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Except for the perception of a home field advantage... Someone is bound to cry "unfair".
 
Gunleik, I'm not sure who is saying that resolution is the be-all and end-all? About four times now you have made the point that it isn't, (for you) and I'm not sure who you are trying to convince. In a fair and even test, that is in presenting differences, resolution should not be weighted any more or less but considered equally with all the other differences. Then, some people may consider the other factors of more importance, or relevance, to current deliverables (you for instance), others may not. But for the resolution to be completely marginalised, dismissed, shut out, (all results to be 2k) seems biased.

You have a camera whose makers are trying to paint a vision of the future (saying that the future is here today if you like it) being asked to perform in a test that marginalises one aspect of their vision. Someone might argue that the bulk of "deliverables" today are 2K so the test is really "what is the best camera to shoot a 2k final product". If that's the test, then state it as such. RED may still believe they are the best in that category as well, but it's against the philosophy of what they have created to be truly interested in such a test.

If you had 100 subjects from the general public asked to view all the cameras and one of them looked different because of resolution, why wouldn't their responses to that particular point of difference be valid? That's the whole point of comparisons. To see what one camera does that the others don't and seeing if that means anything or not. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. It's called a vote. It's also how things change. It is also absurd to presume that resolution is a fait accompli major strength when after enough people have "voted", it may be considered a weakness, who knows? But to be fair, it has to be presented as a point of difference to be judged. You are failing to see that it may be perceived as a weakness, irrelevant, or something else negative. It has to be given the chance to be viewed potentially negatively as well.

For you to say that resolution is not that important to you or your clients today is fair enough, but to shut people out of making that choice for themselves is unfair. How can anyone make the choice if they don't see all the facts? How can they see it if other people (like you) are telling them that you have made the decision for them that it's not important for them to see it?

You have to give people the right to see it for themselves, then weigh up the decision for themselves (where they will also weigh up the other issues) but don't shut it out of the equation altogether because most of the world hasn't caught up to it yet. Imagine a test in any other sphere of invention where the new product can't present a point of difference but instead must compete based on the capabilities of the others. It's absurd.

I like you by the way! :)
 
Mark Toia said:
Zucato asked me to do the RED EPIC part of this test, Which I was thankful.... I couldn't because of my busy schedules. My same question to them also was, It's to be a 4k Projection finish right? ... As I did not think it fair to down convert RED EPICS images by more than half to compete against a bunch of HD cameras. As this was not fair assessment of the RED cameras full potential.

The reply was, We do not have a 4k projector and were not sure if they had the facilities to do 4k Post... ? and the fellow that made contact could not answer if we could stay R3D all the way to the final... So flawed post as well.

So at the end of the day, You never see RED EPIC footage as it really is, meaning the ZUCATO test is instantly flawed...

Pity, because I know the mean well...
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They asked us as well, our schedule was also tight and our questions the same.

They're definitely a good company with good intentions and I'm glad they've been doing these shootouts but I agree with Jim for delivery and pipeline the future is what should be tested as well as the present.
 
Mark Warren said:
You have a camera whose makers are trying to paint a vision of the future (saying that the future is here today if you like it) being asked to perform in a test that marginalises one aspect of their vision. Someone might argue that the bulk of "deliverables" today are 2K so the test is really "what is the best camera to shoot a 2k final product". If that's the test, then state it as such. RED may still believe they are the best in that category as well, but it's against the philosophy of what they have created to be truly interested in such a test.
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Whether or not the test is simpatico with Red's goals or philosophy shouldn't come into play. To consider those things allows for bias. If it is to be a real world feature film scenario test there should be no problem stating that deliverables should be 2k, so long as each system is allowed to function at it's best. That means all cams should shoot in a variety of real world scenarios, and each is allowed to use a process that takes best advantage of each systems abilities for the situation at hand.

It is not reasonable to impose the same workflow on every camera, because in the real world such limitations would not exist. In the real world you shoot your selected system to it's strengths, whatever they are. That means there should be no limitation that prevents the Epic from being shot at a full 5k and using the best method to bring the material in line with the deliverable specs. There should be no mandate requiring the sensor to be windowed, or to use scaling to meet final dimensions, etc. Those are artificial limitations that would not exist in a feature film production.

If you hired a DP to shoot your feature for 2k delivery, correctly chose Epic and supplied the budget to support that descision, and the guy insisted to window the cam to 2k and scale it, you would have a very real beef with the DP, not the camera system.
 
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What will bring the RED Army to the table for an all out Keepin It @ 4K Shoot Em Up against Canon, Sony, and whomever else using only the 4K and higher cameras next year? No low-resolution 1080p DSLRs and no 2K/3K pink cupcakes trying to step up to the plate. Just a 4K (or higher) real-world use Fight Club brawl conducted in a way which gives every company a fair chance at bringing their A Game. It would be conducted by third parties who do not sell camera gear or anything relating to digital cinema using a non-RED/Sony 4K DLP projector that is independently calibrated and monitored at a randomly chosen digital cinema or private screening venue.
 
Hi Mark

I am not saying resolution is unimportant, nor high fps.
For me, privately, I enjoy both a lot.

What I am saying is that resolution is the marketing everyone hears about RED, and quite a few are getting quite good at rebuffing... And then the discussion ends.

Many have an asosiation going in the line of

RED = pixels and numbers and hard/expensive workflows
Arri = Easy workflow and images.


What I am saying is that pixels has not been a deciding factor on any of the big productions I have been involved it. Sure. It's been a nice bonus, but I'd love to, and do like to promote the images + easy workflow aspects of RED as well.

And with the Epic, I don't find that hard at all.

Of course has an agenda of changing the future. Already has, and ptrobably will again and again for a while.
But noone chooses a cam for a current show to change the future.
And I would wish for the focus generally in the marketing being focused on the great image potential and scaleability of the system, rather than the numbers.


Images are emotional stuff. Numbers are rational. I just wish that the promotion of red, other than the lojality, was more focused on the emotional side of things and less on numbers, as that actually puts a lotof producers and dp's off.

Putting PJ in front of you, does not really deliver that, as he has resourses most of us do not.

Still the Scarlet is emotionally, too - such a wildly better choice than say the C300. Not because of obsolence and investmentys, but because of what you can do with it. The numbers speak only that. The images and emotions, speak the story that landed most of us behind a camera...

I'll leave the subject for now.
But I think it an important one...
 
Bro! he is completely right... This has nothing to do with the shootout. Zacuto products are waaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced. They are free to price their products however the wish, but if you've bought a scarlet_X recently then you'll obviously become a very smart customer. The camera is a price performance beast. No camera in the history of cinema has ever had this much quality at this price range.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Jim,

if ZACUTO can't... for the first time EVER against all my believes of doing vs. that as it is just so obvious whom the POWER of the best images belongs to, (EPIC) I will organize such test.


Place of shoot ROME.

Cameras:

RED EPIC

SONY 65

ARRI ALEXA

CANON 1D C (if prototype available)

CANON C300 or C500 (if prototype available)

CANON 5D III

And any other camera with PL mount, that can mount the SAME LENSES.

Shoot to be done in STUDIO under continuos and controlled lighting.

Finish done in both 1080P downsizing the rez of Epic and ALexa and any other camera to it.

Finish in 4K Upsizing the image rez of the Alexa and other cameras to 4K.


Material to be sent to each Manufacturer's chosen Post facility to deliver the finished product. OR Sent to a chosen IMPARTIAL Post facility of trust to do the finish for all cameras.


Final material viewed ata CINEMA facility with a qualified 4K projection system.


Material shot would be FASHION, to show a vast gamma of colors and Skin tones, as well as a piece of Still Life, to show precision and critical focused shots of high contrast images and be able to perfectly repeat each shot.


I have truly tired of the position ALexa has fraudulently gotten itself in the European market, the camera is a great camera but ABSOLUTELY A WRONG CHOICE FOR CINEMA!!

As far as the other 1080P contenders, well, they really needs ot see how ridiculous 1080p footage looks Upsized to fit the rez of a 4K image... ;)


BTW, for the record, which i think every one knows this, Zacuto shot outs aren't really to test cameras but to showcase that to their idea, any one with any camera despite of resolution or capacity, in the needs of a good DP will produce great images and make your film, which is true of course, however the same good DP with the EPIC in hands will blow the S&^$%# out of any other camera in the mist, leaving every one else's camera footage to be viewed as murky soft material, except the Sony 65... ;)
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you forgot to add iphone.

And yes I agree. I always watch those shootouts and all I ever from the audience is wow i never new my iphone could take such great pictures of flowers and a girl in the tub in the hands of a great cinematographer. Wow I'm going to shoot my next great movie on my iphone "Afterall there is a camera for every job out there". BULLCRAP... Get your head right, the only shootouts that should be done should be between an f65 and an epic. an one criteria should be to shoot a running chase scene barebones with no steady cam etc
 
One would need to show the results from all the other cameras on the 4k projector for fair comparison.
Two screenings in LA a few hours apart. There could be time at the end of one show and beginning of the next to show 10 minutes of 4k from a few sources, ie film, epic and f65, if the projector could be squeezed into the booth alongside the calibrated 2k projector...

I've seen simultaneous projection, using split screen with two different projectors.

In reality there are two parallel interests,
4k cameras versus 2k cameras
4k projection versus 2k projection



Mike Brennan
 
yeah why doesnt RED just do a test of their own... Obviously you guys are biased, but you have to claim that there are some amazing cameras out their doing amazing things like a 600$ Hacked GH2... do your own up-rez and down rez tests, Id love to see the results
 
I wouldn't say R3D all the way through post is the only fair test. Has a single RED feature been done that way yet? I doubt it. And why would they when you have REDLogFilm or EXR?

And even Prometheus, probably the highest profile RED project right now is finishing in 2k.
 
Such shootouts are useless

For me is important that Hobbit, Prometheus, Girl with dragon tatooo, Social network, ... are shot on RED
Directors and producers made enought shootouts and big decisions.
 
I agree with Gunleik,

There are alot more reasons than resolution for someone to like Epic/Scarlet. Can you make a hacked GH2 look amazing? Yes. Can it be frustrating working with HDSLR's and mirrorless camera on a shoot with a full compliment of crew? Yes. Are there lighter cameras available? Yes. Are there heavier cameras available? Yes. There are a ton of variables. In the end, for me the Epic has been the best of all worlds. It is the least compromised system available. Much more convienient to shoot with than an HDSLR and much lighter than the bulky production rigs at the higher price points. Plus, any lens mount and RAW.

You could prove to me ten different times that five different cameras were slightly better or equal in image quality to the Epic and it still wouldn't change the other facts.
 
On the Fleetwood Mac Team, we have: Red Digital Cinema, Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon and Bill Clinton.

And on the Ostritch Team we have: Zacuto.

Let the games begin!
 
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