24p vs 30p question

[greg filipkowski]

90% of our work is TV Commercials, I like the 24p look, however after we are done it has to be transferred to 30p for broadcast.
Just wondering if it is worth the extra step. And also I'm wondering what everyone uses to go from 24p to 30p. sinc sound etc.

 

[kylebainter]

After effects... add pulldown to get to 29.97.

 

[M Most]

90% of our work is TV Commercials, I like the 24p look, however after we are done it has to be transferred to 30p for broadcast.
Just wondering if it is worth the extra step. And also I'm wondering what everyone uses to go from 24p to 30p. sinc sound etc.

There is no broadcast 30p format. All HD broadcasting in the US is done in either 60i (for 1920x1080) or 60p (for 1280x710).

 

[greg filipkowski]

All my commercials are 29.97, i don't' shoot 60i

 

[Eric Pascarelli]

90% of our work is TV Commercials, I like the 24p look, however after we are done it has to be transferred to 30p for broadcast.
Just wondering if it is worth the extra step. And also I'm wondering what everyone uses to go from 24p to 30p. sinc sound etc.

Yes, it's worth it. Virtually every national commercial is shot at 23.976 and pulldown is added. It's the preferred "filmic" look and also reduces the amount of frames one has to process for visual effects etc. from 900 to 720.

It follows the long tradition of shooting 24fps when commercials were shot on film. Film is pretty much gone in commercial production. In my experience it's about 90% Alexa.

And as posted above, the 24 frame material is converted to 60 rather than 30 frames by adding a 3-2 pulldown. This can be done in After Effects etc. Each successive film frame is converted alternately to 3 fields or frames and then the next one 2 fields or frames of the 60 Hz stream.

 

[Steve Yager]

Yes, it's worth it. Virtually every national commercial is shot at 23.976 and pulldown is added. It's the preferred "filmic" look and also reduces the amount of frames one has to process for visual effects etc. from 900 to 720.

It follows the long tradition of shooting 24fps when commercials were shot on film. Film is pretty much gone in commercial production. In my experience it's about 90% Alexa.

And as posted above, the 24 frame material is converted to 60 rather than 30 frames by adding a 3-2 pulldown. This can be done in After Effects etc. Each successive film frame is converted alternately to 3 fields or frames and then the next one 2 fields or frames of the 60 Hz stream.

I'd love a tutorial on this from a pro who does it all the time. Or maybe a link to what you think the best tutorial is that you've seen. Or is it as easy as a couple steps you could describe?

 

[Michael Markowski]

I'd love a tutorial on this from a pro who does it all the time. Or maybe a link to what you think the best tutorial is that you've seen. Or is it as easy as a couple steps you could describe?

I would also love to either see a tutorial on this or see the steps involved in the process described as well. Thanks in advance.

 

[Marc Wielage]

We routinely output 24p material to 1080i 59.97 as the final step in commercial delivery. The easiest way to do it is to select that on the output render file, or you can transfer it straight across to an HDCam-SR machine, then play that out and convert it to a different tape at 29.97 as a dub.

Almost every major U.S. commercial and cable network will not accept 24p material for final delivery. They almost always insist on 1080i (59.97 drop frame) for the air master. Contact the specific company to whom you're delivering, and find out the specs to be sure.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

So...no audio in 4k HD 30p? Or am I missing something?

 

[Eric Pascarelli]

Is your project framerate set to 29.97? Because Scarlet, like many cameras, shuts off audio when shooting "off speed," when the project frame rate does not match the shooting frame rate.

 

[Arnold F.]

Generally, the frame rate (23.976, 29.97, 24, 30, etc.) is chosen by the production and or post people, if there are any. You will set your recording device (camera) and the Production Mixer will set his recording device (audio recorder) to the same frame rate. Frequently, the two devices can be jammed. Or a lock-it box, like this, can be jammed to the recorder and then attached to the camera (TC input). Of course, the lock it box is also set the the correct frame rate.

So...no audio in 4k HD 30p? Or am I missing something?

 

[Ed Chapman]

Dub houses routinely accept HDCam SR tapes at 1920p (aka 1080p) - 23.98, 720p - 59.9, 1080i - 29.97. Most distribution is done digitally at this point, with few tapes actually shipped to stations. As most stations are feeding spots via servers it's all a flavor of QT. The 2 standards used by the networks for actual broadcast are 720p at 59.9 and 1080i at 29.97. As many (say most) station that do accept tapes only want 1 version, standard def broadcast are either center cut from an HD master or the station receives a standard def tape, typically digiBeta. The ultimate answer is shoot what ever you want. If you like the look of 24 (23.98) fps shoot that. You like 30 fps, shoot that. Shooting 16:9? Protect for 4:3 as it will be center cut at some point. I agree post work is easier at 23.98.

 

[Eric Pascarelli]

Hi, Ed!

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

That did it, thanks guys!
Also, I thought 4k 30p (non 4kHD) was not possible, but it is working on my camera right now...any thoughts?

 

[Paul Schneider]

For HD in US shoot at a base 24p (23.98). If you shoot sync sound, stick to that framerate. If you shoot MOS and want to over crank for slowmo or such then shoot whatever framerate you like but conform to base 24.

The project will be edited at base 24p.

Any conversion to 29.97, 59.9 will happen via a pulldown conversion after the edit and in the final conform.

In a nutshell, thats the way.

 

[PC Greene]

Mo frame rate questions...

Mo frame rate questions...

This seems as good a place and thread to discuss my other frame rate questions if the OP doesn't mind...

1) Is there no advantage (and what are the disadvantages) to shooting higher frame rates (30p, 60i) and reducing to 24?

2) What of the recent discussions by Cameron and Jackson to shoot 60p moving forward (and how does this affect the "film look")?

3) Are there any RS or motion blur issues when shooting 24 for doc work?

4) What shutter speed to folks think looks "best" (I know it's subjective, but I'm curious to know what looks most film like - as well, what would produce the sharpest stills.

5) Is AE really the very best way to change frame rate? What does PP or MC do when one mixes frame rates within the same session?

6) What recommended reading is out there on this stuff?


Thank you!

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

Man am I gonna get blasted for this...
I do not like the look of 24p, never have. If the cameras not moving it's no a big deal, but with pans and other slow to medium speed camera movements I have always found the results to be too choppy. I know most people love the look of 24p, I've just never been able to get on that train, I almost always shoot 30p.

Seriously though, regarding my question above. Everything I have read had me prepared to shoot only in 4k HD (16:9) because all literature stated 30p was not possible in 4k. But I've been shooting in 4k at 29.97fps all day without entering varispeed mode...unless I'm missing something...