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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How about a cheap "RESCUE SSD" for firmware restores?

Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Does RED have data on this so we can see what their definition of rare is in this case? Of course my experience and that of many others is anecdotal, but for those of us who have encountered bricked cameras in the field that have only responded to forcing firmware re-installs, your definition of rare may not be enough for us to stop worrying about this issue. As I mentioned I used a rented EPIC-M with the latest release firmware (at the time) for 3 days that bricked pretty much every time I chose 4kHD mode and I've read enough about many people having to force firmware reinstalls in the field due to bricking that your taking the issue so lightly is not very reassuring.

Until RED can show us that latest firmwares have much lower prevalence of bricking or issues, it would be great if you could take our concerns seriously and consider this inexpensive rescue ssd idea. Firmware instability is a reality that many people have encountered, we are just looking for a way to minimize the worry and likelihood of it causing huge problems on set. We still use these cameras despite some of their instability partly because we appreciate that the constant firmware development and release schedule is beneficial for us owners feature-wise, and we accept instability for that but if you can give us tools to make instability less of a concern, that would be even better.
Click to expand...

RED does take the user's concerns seriously - I did not mean to imply otherwise.

There are generally three reasons I see people resorting to re-installing their firmware:

1. The camera is acting strange
If you can boot the camera and get to the settings menu there is no real difference between restoring the system settings (SETTINGS->MAINTENANCE->RESTORE SYSTEM) and re-installing the firmware.

2. The user has locked themselves out and can no longer control the camera
An unfortunate side-effect of the modularity and configurability of the EPIC/Scarlet is that a user can inadvertently lock them selves out. We have taken a few steps to help alleviate this issue:
- You can change the mode of the LCD/HDMI/HDSDI from the REDmote
- You can double-tap on the touch LCD to bring back the menus
- As of 2.0.8 (current BETA) you can apply a preset file at bootup (force_preset)

3. The camera won't boot
Sometimes there are bugs in the camera firmware that won't let the camera fully boot given a combination of factors. In this case a force_upgrade is usually the only option. However, for every REPORTED instance of a camera that won't boot (along with a corresponding LOG file) that I've seen - we have been able to identify and correct the underlying issue that was causing the problem.

So, please, if anyone is experiencing a camera that won't boot - report it to RED and send us a log file (we can't fix problems we don't know about). Note that log files are maintained across a number of boots and even across upgrades.
 
I reinforced the idea of this specific type of SSD card to a senior person at RED when I was at the studio about a month ago.


Trent Lillehaugen said:
There is rarely ever a need to reinstall your firmware. The reason this usually seems to work is that a force upgrade does 2 things - restore the factory default settings and perform a firmware upgrade. 99.9% of the time, all you need to do is restore the factory default settings -- which you can do from the SETTINGS->MAINTENANCE dialog.
Click to expand...

This approach may work in some cases, but would it have helped out with the Redmote version compatibility issue that affected Ketch last New Years Eve?
That shut him down - something none of us ever want to need to explain to a client.

Having a spare SSD with firmware that you can trust is intelligent insurance.
In my mind, this is an essential piece of hardware that every camera owner - and perhaps a number of other users - would want in their inventory.

Worth dedicating a 64GB?
Recommended, but how many can afford it? Hence, a smaller capacity that would cover the need. Financially, it makes sense for RDC as well - I anticipate that could easily sell at least one per camera. Since they do not need the same "speed", they could be made for an affordable cost - and still be profitable.

As far as the rebuttal argument I've heard of downloading from a laptop in the field, too many remote location shoots just do not allow for that luxury.
 
Perhaps Red could make a SSD style card that takes CF card inserts.

Trent is great you say Red take users issues seriously... would you ask someone at Red to take care of the
: RedMote issues... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?72254-RedMote-Please-Red
: Side Handle Issues... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?69245-Question-to-you-SIDE-HANDLE-owners
: BombEVF issues... http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?69438-cloudy-Bomb-EVF-picture

I can't stress how important reliability is on a "Professional" tool that is used on productions. That is why Arri are so successful, stuff just works as it should.
 
I'm finding most of my shooting situations lately have me where there is no additional computer or reader or whatever in the field. But I don't see the need for a dedicated or special SSD just for firmware installs. First of all, the camera has proven to be bullet-proof and I check my gear out thoroughly before going out. Only time I've had to download firmware on a job was when I was having a fan issue/overheat early on with the EPIC-M and RED was already aware of the issue, so Deanan emailed me a different firmware build on the spot. But a dedicated or special SSD would not remedy that situation.

When I go out I do keep a spare copy of firmware on one or two SSD's. the highest numbered one or two in the kit, so they will be the last to be used and I don't typically use the last one or two if I'm out in the field with no offload ability -- I bring ample SSD media to cover me. So I guess I don't really see the need. If you're on a budget that doesn't allow for ample coverage with SSD media, then you're probably cycling media and offloading anyway, so it's no big deal to copy the firmware if you need it.

I always check and pre-format my media while prepping for a shoot. And yes, copy firmware if I'm heading off somewhere away from readers and DIT stations and whatnot...

As for a "rescue SSD" that some people are talking about, I don't see how an SSD is going to accomplish some of that. All we can do at the user end is to do a force-update where it will load whatever firmware bundle is on the media. If the camera can't boot to that point and run the firmware installer, no SSD media (even if you painted it RED and labeled it as "rescue"), is going to save you. You'll have to get the camera serviced.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I'm finding most of my shooting situations lately have me where there is no additional computer or reader or whatever in the field. But I don't see the need for a dedicated or special SSD just for firmware installs. First of all, the camera has proven to be bullet-proof and I check my gear out thoroughly before going out. Only time I've had to download firmware on a job was when I was having a fan issue/overheat early on with the EPIC-M and RED was already aware of the issue, so Deanan emailed me a different firmware build on the spot. But a dedicated or special SSD would not remedy that situation.

When I go out I do keep a spare copy of firmware on one or two SSD's. the highest numbered one or two in the kit, so they will be the last to be used and I don't typically use the last one or two if I'm out in the field with no offload ability -- I bring ample SSD media to cover me. So I guess I don't really see the need. If you're on a budget that doesn't allow for ample coverage with SSD media, then you're probably cycling media and offloading anyway, so it's no big deal to copy the firmware if you need it.

I always check and pre-format my media while prepping for a shoot. And yes, copy firmware if I'm heading off somewhere away from readers and DIT stations and whatnot...

As for a "rescue SSD" that some people are talking about, I don't see how an SSD is going to accomplish some of that. All we can do at the user end is to do a force-update where it will load whatever firmware bundle is on the media. If the camera can't boot to that point and run the firmware installer, no SSD media (even if you painted it RED and labeled it as "rescue"), is going to save you. You'll have to get the camera serviced.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with your approach. The prep for any shoot involves checking out every piece of gear you plan on using - anything less is non-professional and you deserve what you get. Placing the firmware on higher numbered SSD's is a good work around to keep in mind.

If nothing else in this thread remains in everyones memory banks, it is certainly following Jeff's advice - establish a formula for preparing your gear for a shoot and stick with it everytime.

My only disagreement is not necessarily about the need, but about the availability of a "rescue SSD" for those that would like that type of backup insurance without tying up valuable media. What works for some may not be a universal solution.

The question is, if either a small capacity SSD or as an alternate, the CF card adapter others have proposed to serve the same function, becomes available at an affordable cost - would you buy one to have as part of your kit?
 
Trent Lillehaugen said:
There is rarely ever a need to reinstall your firmware. The reason this usually seems to work is that a force upgrade does 2 things - restore the factory default settings and perform a firmware upgrade. 99.9% of the time, all you need to do is restore the factory default settings -- which you can do from the SETTINGS->MAINTENANCE dialog.
Click to expand...

Trent other people have commented along these lines, so I'll add my voice: there have been a lot of threads here where RED people, and respected and knowledgeable posters, have said (to paraphrase) 'if things seems screwy, reinstall firmware & black shade'. Certainly this was true in RED ONE days. EPIC/Scarlet things may be slightly different, but then EPIC/Scarlet don't have that handy little SD Card slot; the SSD is the *only* way to reinstall firmware. Given that, I think the original suggestion is one that has considerable merit. Get some $50 1GB SSDs just for firmware, so we can always carry backups of beta and release versions. Cheap insurance.

Mike

Mike
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Trent other people have commented along these lines, so I'll add my voice: there have been a lot of threads here where RED people, and respected and knowledgeable posters, have said (to paraphrase) 'if things seems screwy, reinstall firmware & black shade'. Certainly this was true in RED ONE days. EPIC/Scarlet things may be slightly different, but then EPIC/Scarlet don't have that handy little SD Card slot; the SSD is the *only* way to reinstall firmware. Given that, I think the original suggestion is one that has considerable merit. Get some $50 1GB SSDs just for firmware, so we can always carry backups of beta and release versions. Cheap insurance.

Mike

Mike
Click to expand...

+1:iagree:
 
Doing this would mean RED admitting their cameras go down. That's not a good image.

I can see both the practical benefit of doing it, and the business benefits of not doing it.

I think the best solution is to open up the SSD architecture and let a third party do it. RED get's a good rep for being developer-friendly, and the developer gets a good rep for the SSD. Win-win.
 
never going to happen. Red control the media to guarantee data rates and have no drop frames.

I don't buy the "they don't want to say camera's go down"... look at the RedOne it has a SD slot for firmware which never implied the camera's went down.
 
I remember hearing from Red that they were gonna make an adapter to use our CF cards with our SSD drives... don't know if that's still on the table but I think that would work...

Also, AFAIK that handy little SD slot on R1s was for look files only and not for firmware. couldn't even use Red Drive for firmware updates, it had to be the CF.
 
Trent Lillehaugen said:
There is rarely ever a need to reinstall your firmware. The reason this usually seems to work is that a force upgrade does 2 things - restore the factory default settings and perform a firmware upgrade. 99.9% of the time, all you need to do is restore the factory default settings -- which you can do from the SETTINGS->MAINTENANCE dialog.
Click to expand...

Rarely is not never. Sometimes you have no choice but to reinstall your firmware. It happens on all electronics. It just happened to my Scarlet. Is having a cheap "Rescue SSD" a necessity? No, but it would be nice to have the option. Even if you're on a set where there is a DIT, internet, etc, it still saves a bunch of time if all you have to do is grab an SSD and pop it into your camera. Hell, you could pretend like you're swapping batteries and no one on set would even know that camera went down.
 
Would it be possible to create a small partition on one of the SSD drives that doesn't get formatted? Like maybe a Win/Mac utility that formats the card and creates two partitions and installs firmware on one small partition that is only as large as needed to hold the firmware. The camera would be aware of this partition and would look for firmware updates there and won't delete that partition when formatting the other. Then you could go about your business as usual with that SSD and always have the firmware.
 
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