Some observations

[Ryan Hamblin]

just posting a few thoughts after having my camera since December. Directed a short, a major music video, a very minor music video, and rented the hell out of the camera. Its amazing what is packed into such a small and relatively affordable price. That being said the biggest disappointment has to be the amount of rolling shutter... you really really have to be careful hand holding the camera like a dslr on focal length longer than 50mm... and if your real wild with your operation a 50mm wont be able so pleasing either. the second you tuck in into your chest or put it on your shoulder its good to go just something to be aware of. Another observation is that 1/48th shutter does not look proper in relation to film... we compared motion blur as well as the stacato feel of 35mm and 16mm and the scarlet just seems to be much closer... still not the same but closer to what film is at 1/60th when shooting at 24fps. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[Lliam Worthington]

That's an interesting observation Ryan re 1 6oth...I haven't noticed. I've been shooting 25p and 1 50th. But i'll have a look this week.

Love to hear some more people's take on this.

Best

Lliam

 

[Les C.]

RED confirmed this week that the delay in pulling data from the sensor would be identical to the Epic, so I'm surprised you're seeing this - as the new electronics combined with the MX were supposed to reduce rolling shutter from the RED One.

Minimal rolling shutter is important to me for use in SynthEyes and other motion tracking.

But, my Scarlet hasn't shipped yet, so ... I have no way to test.

Could you post a short R3D showing the rolling shutter problem?

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

I can't a the moment one of the worst clips is still a unreleased piece of content. We had to do a lot of rolling shutter compensation to be the shot looking nearly Perfect.

Rolling shutter is not as bad as it is with dslr, but on an 85mm if you try to shoot like a still camera and not shoulder or some sort of stabilization it's going to be a real issue. The sensor and electronics may be faster than the redone mx. I think the problem lies in how your able to operate this camera... No way could you hold a red out in front of you like a stills camera. It had to be on your shoulder or cradled under your arm which eliminates those odd movements that dslr's introduce

Would love to hear more peoples thoughts...

 

[Arnold F.]

I'm not sure I understand. What is meant by "shoot like a still camera?"

 

[rod otaviano]

we compared motion blur as well as the stacato feel of 35mm and 16mm and the scarlet just seems to be much closer... still not the same but closer to what film is at 1/60th when shooting at 24fps. Has anyone else noticed this?

In your opinion, what should be the shutter speed on the Scarlet that's closest to what film is at 1/48th and 24fps ?

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Shooting stills camera/ dslr = holding in front of you shooting as if your in live view mode. Arms extended etc...

I still can't get it exact but 1/60th seems to be the best compromise. This is of course a matter of opinion s are most things when we discuss aesthetics.

 

[Arnold F.]

I would never hold any camera that way. Still, holding the camera that way is fairly stable, meaning even the slightest camera movement results in unacceptable rolling shutter issues?

Shooting stills camera/ dslr = holding in front of you shooting as if your in live view mode. Arms extended etc...

I still can't get it exact but 1/60th seems to be the best compromise. This is of course a matter of opinion s are most things when we discuss aesthetics.

 

[Alwyn Kumst]

In the days of film and in the days of people training to be operators and dp's we had panning speed tables. Pan to fast and there was a strobing motion. Unpleasant images. So we learned the rules and then new how to break them. The same things apply today. Experience does count. Knowledge does count. Cameras have become too affordable. Blaming the tools does not count.

The LA Complex was shot entirely handheld. Screening on the CW

 

[Arnold F.]

Are we talking about panning with film or holding the Scarlet out in front of you at arm's length? I'm interested in what the OP is presenting but am not yet clear on the exact issue, which I hope we can define exactly.

Again, I personally would never hold a camera out in front of me at arm's length. I didn't with any of my small and medium format cameras nor any of my digital cameras. Since my Scarlet will probably weigh over 10 pounds it will be hard for me to do, anyway. Also, it would be hard for me to see the monitor and hold the camera with one hand and focus with the other all at full arm's length. Correct me if I'm wrong but this shooting style seems to come from DSLR shooters who haven't been able to get a finder.

The "handheld" I intend to do will be on a shoulder rig, which has about the same amount of movement as the "handheld" style the OP describes (at least before fatigue shaking sets in). May I infer then that a shoulder rig is also too unstable for the Scarlet?

In the days of film and in the days of people training to be operators and dp's we had panning speed tables. Pan to fast and there was a strobing motion. Unpleasant images. So we learned the rules and then new how to break them. The same things apply today. Experience does count. Knowledge does count. Cameras have become too affordable. Blaming the tools does not count.

The LA Complex was shot entirely handheld. Screening on the CW

 

[Scott Crawley]

In the days of film and in the days of people training to be operators and dp's we had panning speed tables. Pan to fast and there was a strobing motion. Unpleasant images. So we learned the rules and then new how to break them. The same things apply today. Experience does count. Knowledge does count. Cameras have become too affordable. Blaming the tools does not count.

The LA Complex was shot entirely handheld. Screening on the CW

I was with you, right up to "Cameras have become too affordable." Do you really mean to be so elitist? Are you suggesting that only skilled persons should have access to good tools?

Edit: To clarify, I don't mean to presume you are elitist. Please forgive me if that seemed rude. I ask most sincerely; is that your meaning, that students should not work on professional tools and only a select, privileged few should have access?

 

[Arnold F.]

I think he means that the affordability of these cameras make it easier for dilettantes, like myself, to have access to them without the traditional training and I totally agree. As a former production mixer I think it's nutty that people here think they can do their own sound. So, being able to buy a camera now makes you a DP AND a Production Mixer. They think a shotgun on top of a camera is good enough to shoot a feature. One even refers to Production Mixers, who are responsible for half the shoot, as "extra baggage."

In any case, let's move beyond this and stick to topic, which has yet to be completely defined. I think it's important. Am I about to buy a camera that has too many rolling shutter issues to be shoulder mounted?

 

[Scott Crawley]

I think he means that the affordability of these cameras make it easier for dilettantes, like myself, have access to them without the traditional training and I totally agree. As a former production mixer I think it's nutty that people here think they can do their own sound. So, being able to buy a camera now makes you a DP AND a Production Mixer. They think a shotgun on top of a camera is good enough to shoot a feature.

In any case, let's move beyond this and stick to topic, which has yet to be completely defined. I think it's important. Am I about to buy a camera that has too many rolling shutter issues to be shoulder mounted?

I believe he was saying that you need to know the technical limitations of your tools in order to get them to function properly, and that is right on topic. My intention isn't to jack the thread, rather to clarify. The cost of the tool is not a factor, and novice operators are not better served by an environment where cost prohibits them from learning on professional grade tools.

 

[Arnold F.]

Agreed and no worries . The question remains, must you have a Scarlet locked down to avoid rolling shutter issues? What's the definition here?

I believe he was saying that you need to know the technical limitations of your tools in order to get them to function properly, and that is right on topic. My intention isn't to jack the thread, rather to clarify. The cost of the tool is not a factor.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Agreed and no worries . The question remains, must you have a Scarlet locked down to avoid rolling shutter issues? What's the definition here?

No you don't, but you need to know what panning speeds will work, and which will not. Has anyone generated tables for this yet?

 

[Arnold F.]

I don't think the OP meant panning but I also see now after a re-read of the original post (which has some punctuation/grammar issues so it was hard to read) that he indicates that shoulder mount has been fine. Sorry for not getting that earlier. Tables would be super.

No you don't, but you need to know what panning speeds will work, and which will not. Has anyone generated tables for this yet?

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't think the OP meant panning but I also see now after a re-read of the original post (which has some punctuation/grammar issues so it was hard to read) that he indicates that shoulder mount has been fine. Sorry for not getting that earlier. Tables would be super.

Well his biggest dissapointment has been rolling shutter, and that is primarily a problem in panning, whether on a tripod, your shoulder or in your hands. He seems to be observing that it was less of an issue on the shoulder and I would agree. We tend to pan slower and with less oscillating kinds of motion on the shoulder, than with the other methods and that means less rolling shutter jello.

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

In the days of film and in the days of people training to be operators and dp's we had panning speed tables. Pan to fast and there was a strobing motion. Unpleasant images. So we learned the rules and then new how to break them. The same things apply today. Experience does count. Knowledge does count. Cameras have become too affordable. Blaming the tools does not count.

The LA Complex was shot entirely handheld. Screening on the CW

I'm not saying handheld cant be done... I just warning other shooters of a real issue. I've been shooting nearly 15 years I know a little of what the rules are and how to break them...one rule with scarlet and epic is past a 50 get a handheld rig ha

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Are we talking about panning with film or holding the Scarlet out in front of you at arm's length? I'm interested in what the OP is presenting but am not yet clear on the exact issue, which I hope we can define exactly.

Again, I personally would never hold a camera out in front of me at arm's length. I didn't with any of my small and medium format cameras nor any of my digital cameras. Since my Scarlet will probably weigh over 10 pounds it will be hard for me to do, anyway. Also, it would be hard for me to see the monitor and hold the camera with one hand and focus with the other all at full arm's length. Correct me if I'm wrong but this shooting style seems to come from DSLR shooters who haven't been able to get a finder.

The "handheld" I intend to do will be on a shoulder rig, which has about the same amount of movement as the "handheld" style the OP describes (at least before fatigue shaking sets in). May I infer then that a shoulder rig is also too unstable for the Scarlet?

With a shoulder rig you are fine... Unles you do a whip pan, but as we all know that's kind of a no no with film as well so no biggie. It's one of those things that you just need to test... It's there and given the right ( or wrong, however you want to view it) circumstances its going to get nasty. We had a very important shot of Willie Nelson that I was about to vomit over due to the jello... Luckily there are some good software fixes out there. I was about to die though... Biggest directorial moment of my life and a final shot looks like jello... Don't want any of you guys in the same boat

 

[Mitch Pierias]

Here is some rolling shutter on a whip pan.
Scarlet-X at 3K 48fps, 180 degree shutter and 250mm.

http://vimeo.com/37522370