Student access to expensive gear?

[Tom Greenberg]

Tom: a few points. First, you should be able to obtain a loss of use rider that would cover you renting something on an interim basis while the gear is being repaired.

Second, I agree with everyone's suggestion on training/certification before access to gear.

Third, have you considered partnering with local rental houses to offer student discounts on gear that you cannot carry yourself?

Finally, there was an article in the last year or two, perhaps in the NYTimes, that talked about Film Schools eliminating gear entirely or making students buy insurance. The issue was a series of incidents were film students were injured or killed and the resulting liability lawsuits against the school. (i remember the article mentioning a Florida film school student getting eectrocuted because he grabbed a C-stand that had a light with a short). Something to think about.

Some great ideas from everyone regarding insurance and how to make it work for you. Looks like I need to read our policy in detail and find some additional coverage to fill any gaps. I like the idea of a lab fee to defray some of the costs too.

 

[Alexander Thomson]

At UC Santa Cruz, it scales up as you move up in the classes. Production concentration Juniors get the Panasonic HMC 150, seniors get the Sony FS-100, Steadicam Zephyr, jib, etc., and grad students get the coveted Sony F3 or the 16mm Arriflex. In any case, if you're checking out equipment from the school, you basically have to sign your life away saying that you're financially responsible for any and all damage to the equipment, excluding wear and tear.

Even though i've already paid the $250 checkout fee, I don't even check things out with them since they won't cough up just how "liable" the student is, whether it's an insurance deductable, or the full cost! Instead, I take advantage of the "it's not what you know, but who you know" philosophy and borrow equipment from my mentors for school projects Perhaps a RED is unfair against an FS-100 or an F3 but I say it's a competitive advantage

-Alex

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin, we do have all of our gear fully insured for loss, damage or theft, but the deductible is $500 (steep for a student to pay in the event of a loss). And frankly, for me, the bigger issue is loss of the use of the gear during the repair period.

As others have already mentioned, almost all rental houses require replacement riders in your insurance for just this reason. If a student drops a RED and breaks it their insurance should provide a rental while it's getting repaired or a replacement is found. I actually was going over my rental contract today chuckling that dropping my Scarlet down a flight of stairs would make me a killing right now since cameras are so hard to come by! That renter's insurance would have just taken a camera out for a month at least!

 

[ERIC PECK]

Talking about NYFA.

1. You pay a 2000 dollar "equipment fee" as part of your tuition. Don't know what they do with that money exactly
2. If you fuck up something pretty bad, they will give you an invoice for the equipment. (have not seen it happen).
3. You don't just get a RED on day one. You have to grow up to the equipment.

Let me expand on the third point for a minute:

When you start the program, you only get an ARRI S with black and white 16mm reversal film, and a light kit with something like two totas and a couple of V lights... plus a small tripod for the ARRI.

As you move on, you go from the ARRI S to a digital format like DVX, HVX, HPX style panasonic cameras, recording in P2 or similar, and 5d cameras.

When you go to your second semester, you start working with C-stands, and bigger units like 1k arris, kinos... the bigger unit is an 8 inch 2k. You get to use dollies and you shoot on 16mm and at some point on the 35mm Panaflex.

At that point, you have access to use any of the previous equipment for your projects, or rent outside of school.

The Panaflex very seldom leaves the school. Very few people can afford the cost of shooting 35mm.

For all of the equipment, you do "workshops" on which you are trained on the equipment usage at school.

At some point you do "production workshops" on which you are working on your own and the teachers only supervise so to avoid negligent use of the equipment.

On the second year, everything is either 16mm film or RED (plus some bigger light units up to 1.2kW HMIs). The RED is not really an advertising point like Jon says, I did the NYFA program and I can tell you that we do shoot quite a bit of RED, in fact a lot, but like I said, it is mostly a tool for second year students.

As for accidents happening, yes accidents do happen, but more often than not just because, well, accidents do happen.

One of the nice things about RED is that since the camera is so modular, a broken RED One will more often than not get fixed by RED without requiring a full camera replace... they'll swap a few cards, and charge you for the cards and labor, and I have not seen NYFA ever charge a student for something like that (yet I've never been on a catastrophic accident involving the destruction of a RED camera).

In the end I would probably argue that:
1. Students need to be trained and certified on the equipment before allowing them to use it on their own.
2. Students need to learn the basics before getting their hands on a RED.
3. The RED is probably, although an expensive camera, a friendly camera in terms of repairs. There was the case of a RED that got hit by a wave on the beach... a few card replacements later and, for all I know the camera is still kicking.... do that with one of those 5ds or Panasonic cameras, and you get an expensive dead souvenir.
4. If your class is well trained, they'll more than likely take good care of your equipment.
5. Accidents do happen, even on professional sets too.

 

[Ben Scholle]

I teach at Lindenwood University. Up until recently, a lot of our higher-end gear required a "chaperone," meaning the student needed to have a faculty-member or graduate assistant at the shoot. Then the school was responsible for the equipment. Now that we have our Epic, we're willing to take a little more risk with our sole Red One, and we've started allowing its use for certain upper-level students, providing they go through a basic certification.

We're also a lot more stringent about check-in/check-out process with the more expensive equipment. The Red One package, for instance, needs to be carefully inventoried by a faculty member each time it goes out or comes back in. Students here are fully responsible for for damage or loss, although we do encourage them to purchase their own insurance policies. The most heartbreaking fines we've imposed have been for students who had cameras stolen while in their custody and who had to pay the replacement cost.

Unfortunately, the bulk and risk associated with the Red One is kind of a disincentive for students to use it. They get excited about the idea of shooting their capstone project on it, but many eventually opt for DSLR. Still, we try to make sure they get exposure in-class and on other students' projects.

Was anyone at the UFVA conference in Boston last summer? I met a guy there who was selling student equipment insurance. The catch was that he needed a minimum of like 100 students at an institution to buy it, which I didn't think we'd be able to hit. I saw CSI listed above. Does anyone know of other insurance companies that are easy for students to work with? I'd love to have some recommendations for students.

 

[Peter Simpson]

Here at Auckland Uni in NZ I run a tiered system. Starting in under grad students have access to simple kits based around Sony HDV cameras. In first year post grad they have access to ex-1s then in masters year they have 7d's, ex3's, an f3 and a red one (soon to be epic once stage 3 comes through). The undergrad kits are allowed out without insurance. All post grad students pay into an insurance policy we have negotiated that covers all the gear. To use the f3 they must have a primer course with me before taking it out. To use the red one they have a primer as well but they can only use it if they have a DP I am happy understands the camera. These are thesis films and our students are directors not cinematographers. I insist on the primer session as it gives them an understanding of the camera and lenses etc. I always worry about the high end cameras going out but from the start I drill into them the need for caution and safe practices using the cameras. So far not to jinx it we havent had anything expensive broken or lost or stolen since i stared but I am realit enough to know that eventually it will happen.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I can see a pattern here — the more time you spend in the program the better gear you get.

What I would like to know is — let's assume I already have a fully loaded Epic or Scarlet with my own kit, including a tripod, ff, mattebox, rig and everything else (maybe except huge ARRI lights). Will I be forced to use all these 5Ds and HVXs, because everyone else use them and the program requires it, or I can start shooting all my projects on Epic/Scarlet from day one because I own the camera and know the workflow inside out?

How are the schools you guys had experience attending or work at deal with this?

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Some great points being raised here and a lot of good suggestions! I should explain that our program is a bit different in that it is a highly-accelerated Associates degree program...60 credit hours in 12 months. The program (and student projects) build in intensity and complexity as the year progresses, but the students are being taught on, and using, every piece of equipment we have from Day 1. That does not mean that they can use them without training & supervision or take things out of the building without faculty being confident they know how to use it properly, but it does mean that we want them to get as much hands-on time as possible and encourage them to use the gear.

We have had incidents where gear was stolen from students' cars and turned up on eBay later (we sic'ed the police on the seller), left behind at locations only to disappear, dropped or knocked over, and more. Accidents do happen, as many of you have pointed out, but I am hoping to minimize them through your input.

To answer Demetri's question, we have many students who come in with extensive kits of their own...no RED setups yet, but a lot of elaborate DSLR kits...and we not only let them use their own gear, but encourage it. They are usually extremely popular with their fellow students, who want to include them and their gear on class projects and shoots.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

We have the same approach. Students who didn't take a certain course, are not allowed to rent the gear. There's always cheaper gear to use for everyone and in a higher semester everyone is obligated to take that course anyway so every student at some point has access to the gear. But it makes them realize what they are dealing with. It just makes them respect the gear a bit more because they have to earn the right to use it.
Shit always happens youre never one hundred percent safe. I just busted a filter last xmas on my own gear. Got caught in a strap and pulled it off the table... And usually I'm the safety Preacher.

I have the feeling that our gear is taken better care of than before. I'd recommend it!

 

[Patrick Grossien]

What I would like to know is — let's assume I already have a fully loaded Epic or Scarlet with my own kit, including a tripod, ff, mattebox, rig and everything else (maybe except huge ARRI lights). Will I be forced to use all these 5Ds and HVXs, because everyone else use them and the program requires it, or I can start shooting all my projects on Epic/Scarlet from day one because I own the camera and know the workflow inside out?

How are the schools you guys had experience attending or work at deal with this?

As far as we handle it at our university, you of course are welcome to use whatever you like. Rent somewhere else, own, or get the gear from the university. the thing that matters in the end is the result you come up with. The part if it's creative, original content counts for our classes more than the gear you use. Would be different for tech classes, I'd assume as far as we see it, it's only a matter what you come up with, not really how you achieved it. But of course it's not as black and white as I just put it. Just to make my point clearer.

It's like with all other movies. I've seen pretty crappy movies that looked slick, but I could care less if they existed or not.
Pi was shot on 16mm and it's awesome, and then there's movies so terrible I dont want to name them, although they were shot on a RED one It's just not really a matter of the gear but of the skill...

 

[Tom Greenberg]

It's just not really a matter of the gear but of the skill...

And the story! Great gear won't fix a bad script...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I can see a pattern here — the more time you spend in the program the better gear you get.

What I would like to know is — let's assume I already have a fully loaded Epic or Scarlet with my own kit, including a tripod, ff, mattebox, rig and everything else (maybe except huge ARRI lights). Will I be forced to use all these 5Ds and HVXs, because everyone else use them and the program requires it, or I can start shooting all my projects on Epic/Scarlet from day one because I own the camera and know the workflow inside out?

How are the schools you guys had experience attending or work at deal with this?

My school operated just like a rental house. We had a person always in the equipment room at which you could have the barcode on your student ID scanned and then each piece of gear you wanted scanned as well. If you were using your own gear they didn't care, it was just gear that you didn't check out. If you wanted the higher end gear you were free to take whatever you wanted (even without training) but there was priority on reserving gear: Seniors>Junior>Underclassman Film Majors and then Everyone else. So if you emailed the equipment room and said "we have a shoot for Sunday" and no upper classmen had reserved anything you were free to take what you wanted.

Anything you damaged needed to be reported but there was never a case of anything destroyed beyond repair and school insurance covered theft etc.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

And the story! Great gear won't fix a bad script...

Very true. Story for me falls under skill

 

[Matt Ryan]

we had an equipment cage "gear center" as well who had employees who maintained and checked out the gear and built your rental like a real rental facility. And yes barcodes are a must. This is among the rules and regulations I mentioned earlier.

 

[Zack Birlew]

When I was at Chapman University, the policy was a flat "You break it, you bought it" approach. As far as the students knew, there was no insurance to cover the school and I didn't even know such a thing was offered for film programs until I read this thread. When I was at UNLV, it was the same thing as well. All repairs were paid for by students, along with all extra insurance matters.

Like other programs mentioned, you had to take certain classes and be of a certain emphasis to get some of the equipment. When I was there, all they had were SD video cameras, HVX200's, film cameras, and a Panasonic 3D camera during my last semester. Since then, I've heard they now have RED Ones, new Panasonic cams, and one Arri Alexa added to the mix. For sound, things were nicely equipped but you had to use some really crummy boompoles that the school really should have replaced long ago. The high end stuff went to thesis and second year cycle films, the best part being their custom sound box dubbed "The Cube" and, naturally, the better camera selection. If there were ever anything they didn't have, students rented equipment and most chose RED Ones for their films despite the anti-digital sentiment all throughout my 2008-2011 enrollement.

When it came to using equipment outside the set curriculum, like a video camera instead of film, the school was pretty unsupportive. It was brought to my attention that my first year projects caused quite a controversy because I chose to use the, then brand new, Nikon D90 instead of the 16mm film standard we were issued (a somewhat cool fact that I was THE first to do so with a DSLR ). I'm not sure how far this controversy went but by the sound of it from a few sources the words "expulsion" and "firing" may have been mentioned simply over my camera choice! Quite extreme, I know, but that was the then current vibe at the school. Once the Canon 5D Mark II started showing up more often in the industry and at school, things seemed to cool down, although RED was another thing entirely for a good while. Thankfully, by my third year, DSLRs and RED Ones were the norm in first and second year projects. I guess I could say my films caused change in some way, at least in how the school viewed digital cinema, but it surely would have been hard to keep that stance with the dominance of DSLRs being what it is in the industry today.

Now, with all the new equipment and digital cinema action going on at Chapman, I'd definitely consider it a solid program. My experience was that certain things were lacking but they seem to be in their stride at this point, especially once they get their new expansion buildings built.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

As far as we handle it at our university, you of course are welcome to use whatever you like. Rent somewhere else, own, or get the gear from the university. the thing that matters in the end is the result you come up with. The part if it's creative, original content counts for our classes more than the gear you use. Would be different for tech classes, I'd assume as far as we see it, it's only a matter what you come up with, not really how you achieved it. But of course it's not as black and white as I just put it. Just to make my point clearer.

It's like with all other movies. I've seen pretty crappy movies that looked slick, but I could care less if they existed or not.
Pi was shot on 16mm and it's awesome, and then there's movies so terrible I dont want to name them, although they were shot on a RED one It's just not really a matter of the gear but of the skill...

Patrick, believe me, I know that and completely agree with you. For me the story is the king and no fancy gear or loud special effects can save a bad scripted film, they can help a good story become even better film though. I also know that sometimes bureaucracy and a lack of forward thinking can lead to stupid decisions and policies like the one I described in my question.

 

[conrad gaunt]

Leeds met. students shoot red all the time.

I just threaten the students with violence if they're wreckless, microchip them with gps beacons, then give them a great rate (or so they tell me) .. well i do one of those things anyway..

they're normally pretty professional (can't think of a bad egg..) .. and insured (usually, though i always am..)

i haven't charged anyone/had a claim for damage or missings in four years or more of renting, including all my non-student clients ..except one Red DIN to BNC adapter cable, but when something is designed that badly anyway (cough and it breaks), it doesn't feel right, so I subtracted the amount from his next rental

 

[ERIC PECK]

I can see a pattern here — the more time you spend in the program the better gear you get.

What I would like to know is — let's assume I already have a fully loaded Epic or Scarlet with my own kit, including a tripod, ff, mattebox, rig and everything else (maybe except huge ARRI lights). Will I be forced to use all these 5Ds and HVXs, because everyone else use them and the program requires it, or I can start shooting all my projects on Epic/Scarlet from day one because I own the camera and know the workflow inside out?

How are the schools you guys had experience attending or work at deal with this?

At NYFA, that would depend on the project. There are certain projects on which you HAVE TO SHOOT ON FILM.

There are other certain projects that you have to do with the ARRI S with Reversal stock.

They believe that if you cannot tell a story with such basic elements, then you cannot tell a story with more advanced tools. Your image will look fancy, your story will not work. I kind of agree with them.

Imagine how careful you need to be when you are exposing film with only three stops of latitude... that you cannot playback.

You really have to be careful with you actors and your shot selection when you only have 200 ft of 16mm film to "get it done".

Same goes with dialogue, try to tell the story with no dialogue.

But then projects like your final projects can be shot on whatever you want, as long as you can afford it. If the school does not provide, you can rent, buy, borrow, etc. to come up with the equipment you need.