How to transcode & edit 48fps project in avid

[gbalaji]

Since there is no transcode settings for 48fps , how can transcode & on what project settings to edit in avid for project shot and to be projected in 48fps

 

[MichaelP]

There is no native 48fps editing in Media Composer where 48fps represents real time. This is being done on a couple major feature films and the production company's digital pipeline wrote their own software to transcode every other frame into native 24fps where the editing is essentially being one every other frame. Only in the conform checks and such will they see the full 48fps and adjust accordingly if needed.

Michael

 

[Craig Parkes]

Michael, I just have to say having you around these forums is awesome - your awareness of not just the current workflows but also what people are doing on the cutting edge to make things work is both inspiring, and a useful reminder to everyone that this is an industry which is at all levels make-do, by which I mean it's one where you do whatever is necessary, to make the films you want - and sometimes that means INVENTING a workflow.

In a time and age where everyone is screaming out for more and more quick answers and solutions online, it's great for people entering into production and post to be reminded that at even the truly high end of professional film making there is enough constant experimentation for the answer to the ever pressing question of 'How can I do that, with this software/hardware/equipment?' is often enough 'You can't right now, but sort out a work around and we'll try and figure out a solution for the next release...'

It is humbling to remember it is often those have had to bodge together work arounds who are the ones who set the creative standards that everyone then aspires to emulate, and who actually end up being able to do it faster, quicker and easier because someone else bothered to do it the hard way first.

 

[MichaelP]

Thank you Craig - Technology is constantly changing for everyone - the demands may be the same but are just on different schedules and budgets

Mchael

 

[Bruce Allen]

Michael, I too extend a super-hearty thanks!

BTW - Am I the only mad person tempted to speed up by 4% and edit offline at 1080p50... aka PAL? Or even interlaced 50i? Ha!

I don't particularly like it (I've done the "edit at 25p for 24p" thing before and it screws up my pacing when it's slowed back down again)...

So yes, 24p does seem great for the offline.

But gosh I hope Avid and the finishing / color app folks and the monitoring folks sort everything out soonish and give us true 48p soonish!

I was reading the DaVinci Resolve manual and there seemed to be no provision for changing frame-rates on a project, which was a little bit scary...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[gbalaji]

Thank you Craig - Technology is constantly changing for everyone - the demands may be the same but are just on different schedules and budgets

Mchael

How about generating 48fps quick time and edit in FCp timeline which will auto adjust sequence timebase based on qt frame rate base

 

[Craig Parkes]

How about generating 48fps quick time and edit in FCp timeline which will auto adjust sequence timebase based on qt frame rate base

The one issue you'll run into here, and it's quite an annoying one, is that you'll lose all your native RT Extreme acceleration when working in FCP on non standard frame rates. That is a surprisingly big headache when it comes to actually editing long form stuff as you are constantly rendering, often even the simplest things, just to get playback.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Michael's influence on tools that have become standard in the industry is deep rooted. And he continues to innovate. Huge asset here.

 

[Tom Gough]

Michael, I just have to say having you around these forums is awesome - your awareness of not just the current workflows but also what people are doing on the cutting edge to make things work is both inspiring, and a useful reminder to everyone that this is an industry which is at all levels make-do, by which I mean it's one where you do whatever is necessary, to make the films you want - and sometimes that means INVENTING a workflow...

Michael, I too extend a super-hearty thanks!

Michael's influence on tools that have become standard in the industry is deep rooted. And he continues to innovate. Huge asset here.

+1,000,000... :thumbsup:

All the best,

 

[gbalaji]

Michael,

Do you have any idea how they edit "The Hobbit". Are they by any chance editing in Avid & if yes what the project settings & workflow

 

[MichaelP]

They are using Media Composer on The Hobbit and that is one of the films I was loosely referring to. Because my involvement with their pipeline was when I was still with Avid, there was an NDA in place I am respecting to not disclose actual pipeline, etc. until they do.

As it is obvious by the need, there is a conversion from 48fps to 24 by transcoding every other frame. One could make the assumption that there is some consistency put into place for the metadata tracking back to the 48fps, such as keep all even or odd timecodes in the proxy files, while maintaining the "Original Start" timecode in the database to know whether the clip started on an odd or even timecode. The reason I asked RED to make the START redundant in the ALE file several years ago was because the Avid bin is its own database, but the clips can change over time with transcodes, handles and the such. By maintaining the original start in the file, it can always be used as an anchor point into third party databases - and in this case, the flag to whether the proxy file being used is starting on frame 1 or 2 of original camera file. And of course, double the metadata for LEFT and RIGHT eye management... Actually more than double. There the set of metadata for left and then right, then stereo 3D specific metadata that relates to the relation between the two. MC v6 stereo 3D feature set was designed by Steve McNeill to support all these types of relationships of the original sources and the association of the two or more clips when managed as S3D.

Michael

But as far as The Hobbit is concerned, that is all I can say for now.


Michael

 

[gbalaji]

Do you have any idea when the 48fps edit will be updated in Avid Media Composer. Any tentative timeline since I need to create my own workflow if not implemented.

 

[MichaelP]

At HPA last week in Palm Springs, I saw Colorfront OSD supporting 48fps workflow. I still need to test dailies to 24fps editing in Media Composer to ensure proper and consistent metadata transfer when editing 48fps as 24fps, etc. Then you would need to work with your conform and mastering application to ensure it works with 48fps.

As far as when Avid will add 48fps into Media Composer? I no longer have that insight and would need to be discussed directly with Avid Product Management. My gut feeling is that if it was in the plan, it would not be for this year.

Michael

 

[Quentin Brown]

Very interesting thread this with lots of parallels to a current project I am working on that I hope has some more established workflows and I'm really hoping that Michael and the great minds here can offer some guidance.

Basically we are shooting a project to make the final result look like video. (Why on RED and not just on a video camera? Because they need to do a lot of compositing and vfx work before adding the video look)
Part of the process has been to shoot at 50fps and later interlace the progressive frames at to provide 25fps interlaced result to recreate the smooth motion of SD interlaced video at UK broadcast framerate.

The Epic has a 50fps project timebase mode which seems to create timecode at 25fps base with field flags changing on alternate frames. Using this timebase would be preferable from a capture point of view as it means we can jam timecode and maintain it across multiple cameras as they start and stop independently.

Testing workflows though it seems moving between avid offline and Smoke online we are having great trouble trying to get any form of EDL to work properly. - Any ideas how this can be made to work or do we need to forget matching timecode on cameras and stick to shooting varispeed with a 25fps timebase and use a 2x speed up whilst editing in avid or something?

Surely Red had an established workflow for something like this in mind when they created the 50fps project base setting with it's 25i timecode?

 

[MichaelP]

You might want to try offlining in 720p/50 as you'll have the timecode and the EDL to support 50 frame editing. When editing at 50p or 60p formats, the EDL follows the SMPTE spec for field based edits where:

01:00:00:00 = field 1
01:00:00.00 is field 2

Even though editing is frame based, the EDL could be interpreted to be "field for the 50/2 workflow.

Michael

 

[Quentin Brown]

Thanks for the quick reply Michael. We have indeed begun our process by offlining at 720/50P.

The challenge seems to be in getting an EDL out of Avid that contains the field flags. With so many EDL formats and options on offer it's been a bit of trial and error with no joy so far. Would AAF or ALE be a better bet or is there some flavor of EDL that definietly supports it?

Thankfully YoYotta have just today come up with an update to support RED 50fps project base clip conforming so we might just about be there if we can get the right kind of EDL out or maybe try an ALE..

 

[MichaelP]

An ALE won't do you any good as it is designed to describe sources and not compositions. Try selecting "casdence" in the EDL options to see if that adds the flags. to the File16 template. If not, try using the CMX Pulldown template.

Michael

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

mistika can do the job for you and export the right files for mc6 (at 24fps) , then eventually import back to mistika and have 48fps again.

cheers;