Best cinematic lenses for Scarlet X

[Michael Panfeld]

And your example should phrased as "A 50mm lens on an EPIC has the same FOV as a 64mm lens on a Canon 5D"

No, just the opposite.

(well there was Vistavision...)

mmmhhhhh, nope. Vistavision or 65mm or 70mm has thesame image circle size as the 645 medium format cameras.

And in this case, an epic shooting a 2k still has exactly the same field of view with a 50mm canon lens, or a 50mm RPP, or a 50mm S16

nope.

Conversely the field of view for an S35 50mm lens is still exactly the same as an S16 50mm lens on an S16 camera.

True, but I am talking about usng a lens with a different camera than it was designed for.

Crop comes into play when you are shooting multiple cameras with different sized sensors and you need to match shots

That's true if all of the lenses in your hypothetical were designed for the same format. The same thing hold true when using multiple lenses, each designed for a different format, on the same camera. Which was my point.

The only time this would come into play is if there was some technical reason to match the field of view of a 35mm still photo to the film.

But that'sexactly the situation we are talkng about here.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Guys, it seems that some of you are talking about FOV as far as the lens is concerned. I am speaking solely about the FOV from the standpoint of the sensor. I hope that clears it up.

 

[D Fuller]

No, just the opposite.



mmmhhhhh, nope. Vistavision or 65mm or 70mm has thesame image circle size as the 645 medium format cameras.



nope.



True, but I am talking about usng a lens with a different camera than it was designed for.



That's true if all of the lenses in your hypothetical were designed for the same format. The same thing hold true when using multiple lenses, each designed for a different format, on the same camera. Which was my point.



But that'sexactly the situation we are talkng about here.

Michael you are quite wrong about this.

1. Vistavision used 35mm stock sideways like a 35mm still camera, with a similar frame size. It is not the same as 65mm or 70mm.
2. A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens. Only the image circle may vary, but that is different from the field of view.
3. It does not make any difference what camera a lens was designed for (repeat after me) a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens.

Wach this and report back here after class: http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/05/14/a-lens-is-a-lens-is-a-lens/

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Wow David, I am stunned. That video proves my point. You notice that to get the same framing, Mitch had to either move one camera (if both had the same focal length lens) or put a 50mm on one while the other had a 28mm.

 

[D Fuller]

Wow David, I am stunned. That video proves my point. You notice that to get the same framing, Mitch had to either move one camera (if both had the same focal length lens) or put a 50mm on one while the other had a 28mm.

You need to watch the video again, paying closer attention to the first images you see.

Michael, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that a Canon L-series 50mm will look different on a Scarlet at 5K than a Zeiss Master Prime 50mm on a Scarlet at 5K. It will not. It will give you the same image. Only the sharpness will be different.

 

[William Albertini]

I was hell bent on purchasing a set of ZE primes to compliment my Canon 16-35L and 24-70L. A good start I thought until I dug a little deeper and discovered they are essentially Cosina lenses with a premium price tag. Go to: http://kenrockwell.com/zeiss/ze.htm and scroll down to recommendations… Are the Zeiss compact primes also rehoused Cosinas?

 

[Michael Panfeld]

@William: way to get th thread back on track.

@David: no, what I am saying is if you take a Canon L-Series 50mm and put it on a Canon 5D (Camera 1) and take that same Canon L-Series 50mm and put it on an EPIC/Scarlet (Camera 2, snap a pic on both and compare the pics, you will not see the same FOV -keeping the same camera-subject distance. The framing will be slightly "zoomed in" in the pic from the EPIC/Scarlet compared to the 5D. See the pic in post# 34 above demonstrating this (although that example is exaggerated because the lens is designed for, and the Camera 1 in that pic are 60mm x 60mm, not the much smaller Canon 5D's 24mm x 34mm. Its also exaggerated because Camera 2 in that pic is standard Academy, rather than the more S35-sized EPIC/Scarlet.

 

[D Fuller]

@David: no, what I am sayings if you take a Canon L-Series 50mm and put it on a Canon 5D and take that same Canon L-Series and put it on an EPIC/Scarlet, snap a pic on both and compare the pics, you wil not see the same FOV -keeping the same camera-subject distance. The framing will be slightly "zoomed in" in the pic from the EPIC/Scarlet compared to the 5D. See the pic in post# 34 above demonstrating this.

Hmmm. OK. Then its only your post 41 above that is so very confused.

I suspect from the list of lenses in your sig that you do know this stuff, but that post needs a second look.

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

... Are the Zeiss compact primes also rehoused Cosinas?

No. First off, a little history: Beginning in the 70's "Zeiss-Ikon" teamed up with Yashica to make the Contax SLR camera and many of the (C)ontax (Y)ashica Zeiss lenses were made by Yashica's optical company, "Tomioka." There was basically no difference between the CY Zeiss lenses made in Germany and the CY lenses made in Japan. The lenses made in Japan used the same German quality control systems used in Germany, with quality control inspections by German Zeiss engineers. Yashica was bought by Kyocera and then it made Zeiss lenses until its relationship with Zeiss ended in 2006, when Kyocera ended camera production. After that, Zeiss turned to Cosina in Japan for most of its "consumer" lens manufacturing. Cosina has its own glassworks, and Cosina has a long history of contract manufacturing for many camera companies. However, as to Zeiss consumer lenses, while they are assembled in Japan by Cosina, the lens design, engineering and quality control are all handled by Zeiss, even to the extent of full time Zeiss employees in the Cosina plant. See:

http://lenses.zeiss.com/photo/en_DE...erence/carl_zeiss_quality_made_by_cosina.html

As to the Zeiss Compact Primes, I don't think it is fair to say they are "rehoused Cosinas," (Certainly not at the prices they go for). While they share the same optical formula as the ZF still lenses made by Cosina, they are made in Oberkochen, Germany by Carl Zeiss using the same, but "select" glass from the still lens line . See:

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=45815
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?57738-What-s-your-take-on-Zeiss-Compact-Primes/page4

 

[David W. Jones]

The glass for both the Zeiss ZF and Zeiss CP.2 lenses are manufactured at the Cosina plant in Japan, and are based on the original Zeiss Contax optical designs. They are the same glass with the exception that the CP lenses uses hand picked elements of tighter tolerances for greater consistency across the range. These elements are then shipped to Germany where they are assembled into the CP.2 housings.

There is a lot of misinformation being spread concerning these lenses.

All the Best!

Dave

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Thanks Dave. Do you know if they are using the same coatings then presumably also? They seem to perform optically different in Shane Hurlbuts test when going head to head?

Best

Lliam

 

[Todd T]

We are so close!!!

The 5D is not the cine standard.

The field of view on the 5D is larger with a similar sized lens on any S35 cinema camera (film or digital)

You are mixing standards and it just doesn't apply.

It is the same as asking how to set the 5D shutter to 180 degrees

"Crop factor" was never a cinematic term.

It is a still photography convention to help still photographers compare FOV between cameras with different sized sensors or film types to a 35mm full frame still camera.

Any 50mm lens will have the same FOV on an epic, as on an arri 435, or any other S35 camera.

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

... Do you know if they are using the same coatings then presumably also? They seem to perform optically different in Shane Hurlbuts test when going head

The ZF still lenses have a 9 blade iris and the Compact Primes have a 14 blade iris. Both the still lenses and the Compact Primes use the T* lens coatings. However, according to Zeiss, the Compact Primes are supposed to have better flare suppression as a result of internal light traps and the internal lens housing being painted with several types of black lacquer with different refractive indices.

 

[Alexandros Tsoupras]

Hi guys. I will need some help to understand all this Focal Length, field of view dispute. As I know is, 7d (apc-c sensor) has 1,6 Crop factor to the 5d mkii (full frame 35mm sensor). Focal length equivalent to 1.6x the focal length of the lens, as it is written in the canon’s site.
http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_7D/index.aspx?specs=1
If you see the next videos, you will note that there is a crop factor.
http://philipbloom.net/2010/12/27/lensfov/
http://www.abelcine.com/fov/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PL3coQpQs&feature=related 35 sec in this video. He only changed 4k to 2k. The frame is zoomed. What is happening, in terms of field of view, focal length, angle of view and depth of field, when you cropping the sensor using the same fix focal length lens? Lets say for example canon EF 50mm f/1.2L usm. Is the depth of field more shallow when you cropping the sensor with the same lens? Thanks for your time. Sorry for my English.

 

[Todd T]

What originally set this off was this statement

Also note that there is a crop factor when using still glass on the EPIC/Scarlet sensor. A 50mm Canon EF will behave like a 64mm "cinema" lens on the EPIC

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The glass for both the Zeiss ZF and Zeiss CP.2 lenses are manufactured at the Cosina plant in Japan, and are based on the original Zeiss Contax optical designs. They are the same glass with the exception that the CP lenses uses hand picked elements of tighter tolerances for greater consistency across the range. These elements are then shipped to Germany where they are assembled into the CP.2 housings.

There is a lot of misinformation being spread concerning these lenses.

All the Best!

Dave

+1 On a side note, I wonder if these new sets ZE, ZF.2 are color matched.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Here is a wiki article that should help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_equivalent_focal_length

The statement that a 50 mm is a 50mm is a 50mm refers to the angle of coverage, which is not the same thing as the angle of view (aka the field of view). Angle of coverage refers only to the lens. The AOV or FOV is the combination of the focal length and the sensor (or film) size. See this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_view

http://www.abelcine.com/fov/

Depth of field is a new topic. Best to say that the size of the sensor changes the minimum and maximum hyperfocal distances from the focal plane. In layman's terms, when using a tiny sensor everything looks to be in focus in the foe and backgrounds, but as sensors get larger, what is in focus in front of and behind the subject gets shallower (or shorter or narower), holding the aperture and focal length the same.

 

[George Su]

The best cinematic lenses for the Scarlet would be the same "best cinematic lenses" for the Epic, or Red-MX, or Alexa, or really any other 35mm chip sensor camera.
What makes a lens cinematic or not, is not different on any of these cameras. A good lens is a good lens, and a bad lens is a bad lens.

When we're discussing what the best is, the answer is totally different than what is the best lens that you can afford.

 

[Greg M]

Michael, its the semantics of your descriptions that are confusing everyone. Behaves and zooms" are the wrong words to describe the differences. The difference is simply cropping, a 50mm lens used on a smaller sensor is only seeing the center of the lens rather than the full glass, its cropped. Behavior implies other attributes.
A 50 is a 50 regardless of sensor, meaning all attributes of the lens will always be the same, for example depth of field never changes regardless of the sensor size.

 

[Carlos Reyes]

Michael, its the semantics of your descriptions that are confusing everyone. Behaves and zooms" are the wrong words to describe the differences. The difference is simply cropping, a 50mm lens used on a smaller sensor is only seeing the center of the lens rather than the full glass, its cropped. Behavior implies other attributes.
A 50 is a 50 regardless of sensor, meaning all attributes of the lens will always be the same, for example depth of field never changes regardless of the sensor size.

Thank you.