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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Current RED Scarlet can't cover Super 35 area @ 4K???

D

dean tsolakis

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Hello REDS,

I'm about 2 weeks away from finalising my Scarlet deposit, when it just dawned on me naively i suppose,

The Scarlets limited motion capabilities of 4k@24fps means that it can't possibly cover the super35mm diameter??? So ALL current Cines primes and zooms designed for S35 are voided
at this resolution? ( unless i want to crop and minimise my angle of view ) is this True or have i led myself astray with confusing my research?????

I was looking at the RED One MX@ 4.5k 24.2mm x 12.5mm /s35mm equivalent ( 27.3 mm ) diameter the super 35 extracted area for 1.85.1 release
RED EPIC MX@5k 27.7mm x 14.6mm /s35mm equivalent ( 31.4 mm ) diameter Super 35 Full silent aperture
then the poor old Scarlet A native 5k sensor, that you can't capture motion at, not even at 4.5k :-(( Standard 16@2k stats. so Standard 35@4k i Suppose?????

Someone please tell me i'm wrong!!!!!!!! whats the use of using 4K when you can't use current lenses to cover it??? i don't won't to revert to using vintage Cine primes all the time
 
It's nearer Normal 35 which is what most cine primes were designed for in the first place. S35 only became trendy when DI was the norm.
The difference is not huge.

30 years ago a standard set fo primes was 24 to 85 or 18 to 85 if you were lucly. Today it's 18-85 so nothing radically happened.
Why do you think 'vintage primes' are any different a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens end of story. As your understanding of optics is so lacking you need to ask the question if you should buy a camera at all.
 
I don't think that's accurate at all.

It's the MX sensor. 1.89 aspect ratio at 4k 4096x2160 or 4khd 3840x2160.

Trust me, you aren't missing out on anything with this camera, except high frame rates.

You should go to Red Studios and see it in person and hold it in your hand. That's the best possible advice you can get here.

The fact that you waited this long to order should put you a long long time away from buying one though.
 
Kind of confused with what your talking about Dean...

All cine lenses from RPPs up to Master Primes cover everything from 4K and below to 5K...

I don't see what your talking about when you mean 'cover'? There is a crop factor yes but that was there in the RED One originally with 4K, everyone uses the lenses they did then with the lenses they do now on the EPIC...nothings changed,

Like Stephen says...a 50 is a 50...an 85 is an 85. No difference, crop factor just means you times whatever the lens is by that crop factor and you get what your FOV is...so at 2K you times 2, a 50 becomes a 100mm but its still a 50 at the end of the day

On the EPIC through the the RED One MX and Now Scarlet, there are crop factors, none of which are FF35...

Standard 35 will surely cover them all... unless I've totally missed the point and I'm wrong on all the above, feel free to correct me, I'm not 100% on all of this but this is my understanding from having been around cameras and lenses...

The only time something won't cover tends to be on the wide end as we approach FF35...even then, most lenses will cover depending on aspect ratio, someone said the 17-50 RPP will cover at 17 depending on aspect ratio, at FF35 there is minor vignetting
 
As Stephen says, 4k is quite the S35 we're used to see and the lenses are designed for.

The 5k on the Epic is a bit larger, which creates issues with some rather popular optics, as they weren't designed for +S35

S35 is not the same as FF35mm on a DSLR, though. And never was.

Cheers

G
 
Yeah, like iv'e stated previously i'm not imposing myself as though i were correct or incorrect, merely that i was uncertain of the situation

I was and am under the impression that if i was to place a Lens designed to cover super 35 onto a sensor that is much closer to standard 35 i would effectively be cropping or minimising my angle of view
turning 10mm lens @ 100 degrees into a 12 or 14 or whatever with a narrower AOV??? i love shooting wide on stills and would hate to loose that, this is want i meant to convey!

chill out with the hostility guys ;-)
 
dont think anyone is being hostile...its just a confusing I guess...

Most S35 cams would be cropping surely...S35 doesnt equal FF35 like Gunleik said...Super 16 obviously was designed for 2K or 16mm film but thats a different story all together when it comes to say cine lenses...

Master Prime @ 50mm will always be a Master prime at 50mm. Your FoV will adjust though when/if RED go FF35. You'll be seeing 50mm as you could on say a 5Dm2 which is FF35. There is minor difference between that and S35 but its only a minor crop factor. Nothing that would be killer.

Wide angles like 11-16mm Duclos still work perfectly fine and with the crop factor still give you a wide


I could be wrong with the above but thats what I get and thats what I've seen...given my eyes arent as trained as many on this forum :smile:
 
Yeah thanks Josef, seen Phil's spec. sheets before my concern really is related to altered angle of view

Regards
 
Jarred specifically posted about this at the same time the Scarlet X became available and stated that Scarlets 4k crop is a Super 35mm standard frame size. He mentioned that 5k is actually a bit larger than the standard Super 35mm frame. This is the reason that not all Super 35mm lenses can cover 5k as the image circle on some super 35 lenses aren't quite large enough.

Rest assured, 4K on the Scarlet is Super 35mm which will work with PL mount cine lenses. People are getting confused as they are assuming 5k is Super 35, so 4K must crop, but it has been stated by RED 4k is actually Super 35
 
dean tsolakis said:
Hello REDS,

I'm about 2 weeks away from finalising my Scarlet deposit, when it just dawned on me naively i suppose,

The Scarlets limited motion capabilities of 4k@24fps means that it can't possibly cover the super35mm diameter??? So ALL current Cines primes and zooms designed for S35 are voided
at this resolution? ( unless i want to crop and minimise my angle of view ) is this True or have i led myself astray with confusing my research?????

I was looking at the RED One MX@ 4.5k 24.2mm x 12.5mm /s35mm equivalent ( 27.3 mm ) diameter the super 35 extracted area for 1.85.1 release
RED EPIC MX@5k 27.7mm x 14.6mm /s35mm equivalent ( 31.4 mm ) diameter Super 35 Full silent aperture
then the poor old Scarlet A native 5k sensor, that you can't capture motion at, not even at 4.5k :-(( Standard 16@2k stats. so Standard 35@4k i Suppose?????

Someone please tell me i'm wrong!!!!!!!! whats the use of using 4K when you can't use current lenses to cover it??? i don't won't to revert to using vintage Cine primes all the time
Click to expand...


You are WRONG!!

Hope you are happier now... ;)

get a SCARLET X get a set of any Cine Primes or Cine Zooms, and go shoot your projects at 24fps at full 4K, then if you need to slow the frames down use any of several SW available to do that,
not the same as shooting it form sensor in Raw, but still usable if done right.
 
dean tsolakis said:
Hello REDS,

I'm about 2 weeks away from finalising my Scarlet deposit, when it just dawned on me naively i suppose,

The Scarlets limited motion capabilities of 4k@24fps means that it can't possibly cover the super35mm diameter??? So ALL current Cines primes and zooms designed for S35 are voided
at this resolution? ( unless i want to crop and minimise my angle of view ) is this True or have i led myself astray with confusing my research?????

I was looking at the RED One MX@ 4.5k 24.2mm x 12.5mm /s35mm equivalent ( 27.3 mm ) diameter the super 35 extracted area for 1.85.1 release
RED EPIC MX@5k 27.7mm x 14.6mm /s35mm equivalent ( 31.4 mm ) diameter Super 35 Full silent aperture
then the poor old Scarlet A native 5k sensor, that you can't capture motion at, not even at 4.5k :-(( Standard 16@2k stats. so Standard 35@4k i Suppose?????

Someone please tell me i'm wrong!!!!!!!! whats the use of using 4K when you can't use current lenses to cover it??? i don't won't to revert to using vintage Cine primes all the time
Click to expand...


OK my math is a bit fuzzy in the morning and only comes right after my fifth espresso. I’m on my first but will give it a go…


So S35 (nominal format) is approximately 25 x 14 mm?

5k sensor is 5120 pixels for the 30mm width of the EPIC sensor

4k crop in is 4096 (photosites).


Therefore 30 * 4096/5120 = 24 mm (width of 4k crop in)

This is 1 mm difference (in width) between 4k crop in and nominal s35 format.


You ask what is the angular difference?

OK. Lets say we use a 35mm lens.


For 24 mm 4k crop in: [((12/35(f))Tan^-1) *2] = 37.8 degrees horizonal view angle with lens focused at infinity.

For 25mmm nominal S35: [((12.5/35(f)Tan^-1) *2] = 39.3 degrees horizontal view angle (at infinity focus).

The difference between nominal S35 and Scarlet 4K crop in terms of angular difference for a 35 mm lens focused at infinity is (39.3 -37.8) = 1.5 degrees.



If you visually notice a difference in angle of view bewtween nominal S35 and 4k crop in...I will eat my hat.


I hope that helps assuming my 1 espresso math is correct?

Best,

Eric

PS

I have two and three espressos and check my math a bit later...

is the nominal approximate 25 mm by 14 correct for S35?

...Basically your image circle of regular primes will be more favorable it seems in the 4k crop in compared to 5k.

...So like what Ketch says get some lenses and see what you like to work with.
 
Thanks Guys!! iv'e never been so glad to be wrong as long as the altered AOV is negligible , i honestly thought there'd be a greater variance

I assumed 4.5k was S35
 
Last edited:
It took me a while to get this at first myself. You get the same image projected through the lens to the sensor regardless of crop factors.
You simply enable less of the sensor to record, from outside in, at 5K, 4K, 3k.
The resulting image will be exactly the same, you just get less of it, from the outside in.
If I move down to 3K capture, I will need a wider lens to achieve the same shot. Thus, any lens that will cover at 5K will cover at 4K or 3K.
This is why people wanting to work in 2K or 3K are looking at S16 PL lenses. They are only recording from the center 56% of the sensor area.
 
I never thought the m chip and the MX were different sizes. The field of view never changed after the MX upgrade from the m on the Red one M vs. MX

This chart would lead one to believe that the MX is a bigger chip than the M and I have never thought that to he the case.


David
 
What makes me "wait and see" about Scarlet is the ability to shoot 4k @ 25p & HDRi.

Hope they still plan to make it possible. Hope it's technically possible.

Pat
 
David Battistella said:
I never thought the m chip and the MX were different sizes. The field of view never changed after the MX upgrade from the m on the Red one M vs. MX

This chart would lead one to believe that the MX is a bigger chip than the M and I have never thought that to he the case.


David
Click to expand...

On the R1, it's not.
On the R1 vs the Epic it is (as the Epic MX sensor is larger)
 
I always thought the RED1 MX, Epic, and Scarlet shared the same chip, just different processing.
 
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