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Red CF to side SSD module adapter ?
- Thread starter J Davis
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- #2
Luis Caffesse
Well-known member
There was talk of this in the past - but if I recall correctly I don't think it's on the roadmap any longer.
(which is a shame, because it would be a VERY welcomed accessory, especially for Scarlet).
(which is a shame, because it would be a VERY welcomed accessory, especially for Scarlet).
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- #4
Paramon Ivanovich
Well-known member
not gonna happen, but I hope someone will come up with the alternative media solution;
just like it was with Sony SxS cards
just like it was with Sony SxS cards
Mike 'Fireman' Ross
Well-known member
Agree it was trailed and mentioned by Jarred more than once IIRC.
This was when Scarlet was 2/3" 3K...
Scarlet has changed.
It wouldn't surprise me if plans have changed too, but AFAIK there's been no positive statement one way or the other.
It wouldn't surprise me if the adapter was dead, although it seems to me it would have been a relatively cheap and simple project, and still useful; in performance terms Scarlet is kinda sorta a RED ONE replacement. OK it's more than that but it's closer to RED ONE than it is to the leap to EPIC in terms of data rates, supported resolutions and frame rates etc.
I'd buy one, just in case...
Mike
This was when Scarlet was 2/3" 3K...
Scarlet has changed.
It wouldn't surprise me if plans have changed too, but AFAIK there's been no positive statement one way or the other.
It wouldn't surprise me if the adapter was dead, although it seems to me it would have been a relatively cheap and simple project, and still useful; in performance terms Scarlet is kinda sorta a RED ONE replacement. OK it's more than that but it's closer to RED ONE than it is to the leap to EPIC in terms of data rates, supported resolutions and frame rates etc.
I'd buy one, just in case...
Mike
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Here's a couple of reasons why an adapter is a good idea.
1. A very compact back up in the event that there is an issue with the SSDs.
2. In documentary situations CF cards can be backed up in the wild with hyperdrives, no need for a computer. Think of a situation where you are on the move constantly and don't have a chance to set up a proper DIT station.
3. CF cards retain a little more value.
I don't see it happening anymore, but I wish it would.
Nick
1. A very compact back up in the event that there is an issue with the SSDs.
2. In documentary situations CF cards can be backed up in the wild with hyperdrives, no need for a computer. Think of a situation where you are on the move constantly and don't have a chance to set up a proper DIT station.
3. CF cards retain a little more value.
I don't see it happening anymore, but I wish it would.
Nick
BigLu
Well-known member
SSD Cards are so rad you want to get out of the CF card idea and never ever look back.
You have to experience it to feel it but you will.
\
just a heads up
You have to experience it to feel it but you will.
\
just a heads up
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
Yeah, I own a whole bunch of them and use them all the time. They still don't do what the CF cards do. It's not an either or, it's a both would be nice.
Nick
Nick
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- #10
Some people like to point out that its cheaper per gig to go the SSD route but this calculation is flawed.
The aim of the game is to get the footage off the camera and offloaded to hard drives and backups.
So two CF cards in rotation work just the same as two SSD's in rotation, but two CF's in rotation costs less
and anything that improves the operating costs of the camera helps it be competitive in the new price bracket at
which the scarlet competes in.
The only difference then, is the limit to the length of ultra long takes.
edit: overheads to have
two SSD's in rotation $1900
two CF's in rotation $600
or to be safe you want backup in case one magazine fails
three SSD's in rotation $2850
three CF's in rotation $900
The aim of the game is to get the footage off the camera and offloaded to hard drives and backups.
So two CF cards in rotation work just the same as two SSD's in rotation, but two CF's in rotation costs less
and anything that improves the operating costs of the camera helps it be competitive in the new price bracket at
which the scarlet competes in.
The only difference then, is the limit to the length of ultra long takes.
edit: overheads to have
two SSD's in rotation $1900
two CF's in rotation $600
or to be safe you want backup in case one magazine fails
three SSD's in rotation $2850
three CF's in rotation $900
Peter Matthes
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Even with an adaptor, I have to believe there would be serious speed limitations.
Larry McKee
Well-known member
How so? If I understood correctly, RC42 is about a 10:1 compression ratio. If that is the case, you could shoot anything the RED One could shoot. For most projects, RED One quality is "good enough." ;-)
Gunleik Groven
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@4k... True
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Jeff Kilgroe
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EPIC and Scarlet are 16bit, they're moving 33% more data within the same frame size as compared to the RED One.
REDCODE RC42 is about 7:1, RC36 is 8:1 and RC28 is 10:1
4K 2:1 on EPIC/ Scarlet is 384MB/s uncompressed, vs. 288MB/s on the RED One. So at 10:1 compression (REDCODE 28 equivalent), the data rate for 4K 2:1 24fps on EPIC would be close to 39MB/s + overhead and bit-rate fluctuation, plus audio...
So if we assume 40MB/s for 4K 2:1 @24fps, sans audio, you still wont' be able to get 10 minutes on a 16GB CF card...
Additionally, RED is not interested in "good enough" solutions and their CF program was ended in favor of SSD's. So, I don't see the adapter happening, nor would there be much of a market for it. Not when the Scarlet brain package for < $10K includes the side SSD module and 1x 64GB SSD is cheaper than a 16GB CF 4-pack. Even more so if you buy a 4-pack of SSD's.
While I understand wanting to save some money and re-use accessories you may already have, I'm really confused how people continuously want to short-change themselves on the recording media.
I don't see how anyone can realistically shoot with two ~10min mags (16GB CF cards, if they worked) and round-trip them in time consistently. For most anything other than narrative / commercial work, record times that short are all but worthless. 16GB CF on Scarlet or EPIC would be like 8GB CF on the RED One all over again. And I don't think RED is interested in solutions that cripple the camera or those using it.
Imran Farouk
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Technically this would be awesome for Scarlet, since its shooting ability is 4K...
In which case the adapter can always be encoded to allow only a compression rate of 10:1 or above, so placing it in will apply default settings for compression rate...
Considering how long the SSD card is, you could use dual CF Cards to get a 32GB SSD?
I do love the SSDS, need to find where to put these CF cards to use...
In which case the adapter can always be encoded to allow only a compression rate of 10:1 or above, so placing it in will apply default settings for compression rate...
Considering how long the SSD card is, you could use dual CF Cards to get a 32GB SSD?
I do love the SSDS, need to find where to put these CF cards to use...
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
"I don't see how anyone can realistically shoot with two ~10min mags (16GB CF cards, if they worked) and round-trip them in time consistently. For most anything other than narrative / commercial work, record times that short are all but worthless. 16GB CF on Scarlet or EPIC would be like 8GB CF on the RED One all over again. And I don't think RED is interested in solutions that cripple the camera or those using it. "
We all shot on 400' mags for a really long time and nobody had a problem with the same run times you are talking about. Nobody shooting anything for a 1080p master (anything for TV) has no reason to ever shoot above RC28 (I'm sure people will disagree, but that's my opinion). I doubt it will ever happen, but a CF adapter would be a valued AKS that a lot of people I know would want. Hell, it wasn't our idea, it was Reds. Just sayin.......
PS- when doing doc stuff my Dit always wanted me to shoot on 8 gig cards because they download so fast. Plus, lets say you are in west whothefuckistanilvania, and you're AC drops the CF cards overboard while you are in a raft on the rapids. You could probably send a runner in to the next big town and buy some 8gig flash cards and continue shooting. Good luck getting RED ssds.
We all shot on 400' mags for a really long time and nobody had a problem with the same run times you are talking about. Nobody shooting anything for a 1080p master (anything for TV) has no reason to ever shoot above RC28 (I'm sure people will disagree, but that's my opinion). I doubt it will ever happen, but a CF adapter would be a valued AKS that a lot of people I know would want. Hell, it wasn't our idea, it was Reds. Just sayin.......
PS- when doing doc stuff my Dit always wanted me to shoot on 8 gig cards because they download so fast. Plus, lets say you are in west whothefuckistanilvania, and you're AC drops the CF cards overboard while you are in a raft on the rapids. You could probably send a runner in to the next big town and buy some 8gig flash cards and continue shooting. Good luck getting RED ssds.
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- #17
Whole features have been shot on red CF cards
As for time transfer time, there is tons of extra time on set between takes. Even takes in fast succession have moments where the camera is not rolling while someone adjusts a light, touches up make up or fixes hair. During this time the offload keeps offloading. I severely doubt it would catchup and if it were to just cycle thru with 3 cards instad of 2.
For the single camera scarlet owner operator these overheads push the operating cost of the scarlet way above the c300. If Nov 3 is all about facing off agains canon, scarlet vs c300, then little things like this adapter help RED's cause. Thats why I post. I like what RED is achieving and thats why I spend time suggesting things here.
As for time transfer time, there is tons of extra time on set between takes. Even takes in fast succession have moments where the camera is not rolling while someone adjusts a light, touches up make up or fixes hair. During this time the offload keeps offloading. I severely doubt it would catchup and if it were to just cycle thru with 3 cards instad of 2.
For the single camera scarlet owner operator these overheads push the operating cost of the scarlet way above the c300. If Nov 3 is all about facing off agains canon, scarlet vs c300, then little things like this adapter help RED's cause. Thats why I post. I like what RED is achieving and thats why I spend time suggesting things here.
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Jeff Kilgroe
Well-known member
Hey guys, not trying to be argumentative here... And yes, I know we used to shoot on 400ft mags... Some of us still do. Well, I haven't shot film in over 2 years now. Ironically, I didn't start shooting film until about the time I got my hands on RED and for a bit after. I came over from HD land. My point was that it's hard to get by with just two pieces of media, especially small ones. 3 or more is better and even then it takes more than that to cover your butt against other failures or hold-ups. Not all of us have the luxury of time between takes like J Davis seems to have. ...Or if we do, maybe we don't have adequate crew on these low budget productions to handle and cycle cards properly.
You can always rent media too, you know...
As for the 8GB card reference, Nick. Not sure where you were going with that. They don't really translate into reality. They're barely good enough to record 4K on the RED One and won't be able to do it on the Epic or Scarlet. RED 8GB have long been out of production, Lexar 8GB 300X UDMA are out of production too and the current 330X and 6--X cards don't work. So, in your example, you can't really just run into town and pick up anything if you're off in some third-world mud hole.
Theres's a real good chance that the 16GB RED CF cards are not going to be fast enough for 4K on the Scarlet, even with a 2:1 aspect and 10:1 compression. Beyond that, I think there's too much compromise to make them a worthwhile solution. And going back to the 400ft mag thing, you're not going to get 10 minutes on a 16GB CF card at 4K 2:1 w/ 10:1. More like 7 to 8 minutes. Less in high detail shots and/or with audio.
Nick, hate to pick nits, but I'm not sure what your DIT was doing if he thought the 8GB cards were faster. In a good setup with fast drives and a proper reader, the 16GB RED cards can be fully copied in less time than the older red 8GB cards. Off the top of my head, I think we're getting 4 minutes or slightly under when offloading a full 16GB RED CF. It took every bit of 5 or 6 minutes to offload a full 8GB CF card.
I totally understand the thinking here, wanting to use media that many of us already have. But the data rates on Epic and Scarlet are going to be stressing these 16GB CF's to their limit. And when it comes to equipping a usable camera package, there are other corners I would cut first before skimping on the media. Much of the edge I have with my work is visual quality and cinematic look. Even though 99% of my work gets delivered for corporate intranet, blu-ray, and regular old DVD, I shoot nearly everything at 5K now and I don't suffer all the problems I had with shooting Varicam, F900, XDCAM, HVX200 and all the stuff I used to shoot on.
I disagree on the point of the media pricing the Scarlet above the C300. You can buy a Scarlet brain with Al Canon mount, Side SSD module and a 4-pack of 256GB SSD's for the same price as the C300 body alone.
For the same price as the C300 body alone (or within $300 of it), you can build this Scarlet package:
Scarlet w/ Al Canon Mount & Side SSD. - 9750
5" RED Pro touch LCD - 1600
WoodenCamera side handle - 180
RED DSMC Side Handle - 950
3 x REDVOLT 4-Packs - 2250
2 x REDVOLT Quad Chargers - 980
RED DSMC Top Handle - 125
RED DSMC Pro Battery Module - 1950
RED Tactical Top Plate (or WoodenCamera top) - 300
2 x RED SSD 64GB - 1900
RED Station SSD Module - 250
Personally, I think I'd go with two REDVOLT 4-Packs and the dual battery module instead of the quad (price unknown, but should be a bit cheaper) and pick up a third 64GB SSD... Still should be about the same price as the $20K entry price for the C300 with nothing else. And Scarlet has AF and IS, the C300 does not. Not to mention the various resolutions and frame rate options...
Operating costs with Scarlet will probably be a bit higher than the C300 in terms of the amount of storage you need for what you shoot -- as the Scarlet ideally records at 55MB/s, which is nearly 9X higher than the C300's 50Mbps. Beyond that you're going to be into that C300 for more than a Scarlet kit by the time you add batteries, chargers, extra handles, media, other accessories....
You can always rent media too, you know...
As for the 8GB card reference, Nick. Not sure where you were going with that. They don't really translate into reality. They're barely good enough to record 4K on the RED One and won't be able to do it on the Epic or Scarlet. RED 8GB have long been out of production, Lexar 8GB 300X UDMA are out of production too and the current 330X and 6--X cards don't work. So, in your example, you can't really just run into town and pick up anything if you're off in some third-world mud hole.
Theres's a real good chance that the 16GB RED CF cards are not going to be fast enough for 4K on the Scarlet, even with a 2:1 aspect and 10:1 compression. Beyond that, I think there's too much compromise to make them a worthwhile solution. And going back to the 400ft mag thing, you're not going to get 10 minutes on a 16GB CF card at 4K 2:1 w/ 10:1. More like 7 to 8 minutes. Less in high detail shots and/or with audio.
Nick, hate to pick nits, but I'm not sure what your DIT was doing if he thought the 8GB cards were faster. In a good setup with fast drives and a proper reader, the 16GB RED cards can be fully copied in less time than the older red 8GB cards. Off the top of my head, I think we're getting 4 minutes or slightly under when offloading a full 16GB RED CF. It took every bit of 5 or 6 minutes to offload a full 8GB CF card.
I totally understand the thinking here, wanting to use media that many of us already have. But the data rates on Epic and Scarlet are going to be stressing these 16GB CF's to their limit. And when it comes to equipping a usable camera package, there are other corners I would cut first before skimping on the media. Much of the edge I have with my work is visual quality and cinematic look. Even though 99% of my work gets delivered for corporate intranet, blu-ray, and regular old DVD, I shoot nearly everything at 5K now and I don't suffer all the problems I had with shooting Varicam, F900, XDCAM, HVX200 and all the stuff I used to shoot on.
I disagree on the point of the media pricing the Scarlet above the C300. You can buy a Scarlet brain with Al Canon mount, Side SSD module and a 4-pack of 256GB SSD's for the same price as the C300 body alone.
For the same price as the C300 body alone (or within $300 of it), you can build this Scarlet package:
Scarlet w/ Al Canon Mount & Side SSD. - 9750
5" RED Pro touch LCD - 1600
WoodenCamera side handle - 180
RED DSMC Side Handle - 950
3 x REDVOLT 4-Packs - 2250
2 x REDVOLT Quad Chargers - 980
RED DSMC Top Handle - 125
RED DSMC Pro Battery Module - 1950
RED Tactical Top Plate (or WoodenCamera top) - 300
2 x RED SSD 64GB - 1900
RED Station SSD Module - 250
Personally, I think I'd go with two REDVOLT 4-Packs and the dual battery module instead of the quad (price unknown, but should be a bit cheaper) and pick up a third 64GB SSD... Still should be about the same price as the $20K entry price for the C300 with nothing else. And Scarlet has AF and IS, the C300 does not. Not to mention the various resolutions and frame rate options...
Operating costs with Scarlet will probably be a bit higher than the C300 in terms of the amount of storage you need for what you shoot -- as the Scarlet ideally records at 55MB/s, which is nearly 9X higher than the C300's 50Mbps. Beyond that you're going to be into that C300 for more than a Scarlet kit by the time you add batteries, chargers, extra handles, media, other accessories....
Nick Gardner
Well-known member
I didn't realize they had discontunued the old whatever they were cards. On a tower sure, you can down load fast. I'm again just saying that out in the wilds, we usually go with the minimal gear. A full 16 gig card takes longer to down load than a full 8 is all. I'm not lamenting the death of cf cards. I Just wish there was an option to still use them. Plus sure they may not be fast enough for epic, but there are lots of red ones out there with ssd modules. Let's agree to disagree ;-) i don't think it matters anyway since it'll never happen ;-)
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