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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Hostility is in the air

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Carter Cammack said:
You mean to say that another 60 pages of pointless speculations, arguments over opinions, and burning insults won't get us our cameras sooner?

So this would be another needless, sarcastic, post then.
Click to expand...

I thought that was funny too...

Eric
 
Jon Jones said:
Ok guys it's time to institute a little maturity here, I have a proposal, when your talking about a certain thread, and someone comes in and posts something like... "SCARLET should have been 6k or 10k" or something like that... Don't even respond, just divert their comment over into the Complaint Dept. Right Here...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?38-COMPLAINT-DEPARTMENT

Your only exacerbating the situation when you continue to clog up the forum with useless rabble, and it is really making it painful to post here.

There are hurt people, yes we get that, they are bitter too, ok, not denying that either. So lets point them in the right direction with their complaints so that the issues can be dealt with accordingly.

Remember don't respond, just redirect.
Click to expand...

The point being that if a discussion seems drawn to a negative side, criticism or a matter that might not be a complain but rather just a discussion with some degree of criticism it must be put into the "complain" department. This elitist thinking that those with opinions other then your own must be banished from a part of a forum where you tend to spend a lot of time is I think tasteless.

For what purpose is a discussion if everyone agrees and everyone is copy pasting what others say? I don't mean that people should speak in a harsh and overly disrespectful tone, but a discussion, or a debate for that matter is a place of opinions and a lot of them differs between people. Especially when it comes to matters close to a revolutionary status.

But to say to some that your opinions aren't good enough for this part of the forum and saying they should be banned to a place where there are no debates or discussions but rather a list of complains is just wrong. Who are you to decide what people want to discuss or who's opinions matter? I know you are happy with your camera, but people won't take it away from you, people won't ruin your life if they are unhappy about something and want to express their opinions.

If you post something on a forum there will most certainly be people that disagree, if you want no feedback what so ever, except the postive, then write a blog and delete all the negative posts.

A forum is a place where people discuss, talk, debate, express ideas and opinions, it's a place of free speech as long as you don't discriminate or get personal on a level outside of the topic.
What is hostility for you, might just be an expression of an opinion for someone else and if you are very happy about your camera I can understand that even the slightest criticism might look like a personal brawl against you. But reality is, this is a forum, where we discuss and there are a lot of people, you are not in the place to create rules on who should write where and how.

I think this thread should be closed, it has no reason but to discredit some people as being less welcome to this forum and I think it's rather tasteless.
 
Good point on discussions topic and please do close this thread =)
Christoffer Glans said:
The point being that if a discussion seems drawn to a negative side, criticism or a matter that might not be a complain but rather just a discussion with some degree of criticism it must be put into the "complain" department. This elitist thinking that those with opinions other then your own must be banished from a part of a forum where you tend to spend a lot of time is I think tasteless.

For what purpose is a discussion if everyone agrees and everyone is copy pasting what others say? I don't mean that people should speak in a harsh and overly disrespectful tone, but a discussion, or a debate for that matter is a place of opinions and a lot of them differs between people. Especially when it comes to matters close to a revolutionary status.

But to say to some that your opinions aren't good enough for this part of the forum and saying they should be banned to a place where there are no debates or discussions but rather a list of complains is just wrong. Who are you to decide what people want to discuss or who's opinions matter? I know you are happy with your camera, but people won't take it away from you, people won't ruin your life if they are unhappy about something and want to express their opinions.

If you post something on a forum there will most certainly be people that disagree, if you want no feedback what so ever, except the postive, then write a blog and delete all the negative posts.

A forum is a place where people discuss, talk, debate, express ideas and opinions, it's a place of free speech as long as you don't discriminate or get personal on a level outside of the topic.
What is hostility for you, might just be an expression of an opinion for someone else and if you are very happy about your camera I can understand that even the slightest criticism might look like a personal brawl against you. But reality is, this is a forum, where we discuss and there are a lot of people, you are not in the place to create rules on who should write where and how.

I think this thread should be closed, it has no reason but to discredit some people as being less welcome to this forum and I think it's rather tasteless.
Click to expand...
 
lock down membership to RedUser... by invite only.
use scarletuser as a proving grounds where proven members can then join Red User...
 
Christoffer Glans said:
The point being that if a discussion seems drawn to a negative side, criticism or a matter that might not be a complain but rather just a discussion with some degree of criticism it must be put into the "complain" department. This elitist thinking that those with opinions other then your own must be banished from a part of a forum where you tend to spend a lot of time is I think tasteless.

For what purpose is a discussion if everyone agrees and everyone is copy pasting what others say? I don't mean that people should speak in a harsh and overly disrespectful tone, but a discussion, or a debate for that matter is a place of opinions and a lot of them differs between people. Especially when it comes to matters close to a revolutionary status.

But to say to some that your opinions aren't good enough for this part of the forum and saying they should be banned to a place where there are no debates or discussions but rather a list of complains is just wrong. Who are you to decide what people want to discuss or who's opinions matter? I know you are happy with your camera, but people won't take it away from you, people won't ruin your life if they are unhappy about something and want to express their opinions.

If you post something on a forum there will most certainly be people that disagree, if you want no feedback what so ever, except the postive, then write a blog and delete all the negative posts.

A forum is a place where people discuss, talk, debate, express ideas and opinions, it's a place of free speech as long as you don't discriminate or get personal on a level outside of the topic.
What is hostility for you, might just be an expression of an opinion for someone else and if you are very happy about your camera I can understand that even the slightest criticism might look like a personal brawl against you. But reality is, this is a forum, where we discuss and there are a lot of people, you are not in the place to create rules on who should write where and how.

I think this thread should be closed, it has no reason but to discredit some people as being less welcome to this forum and I think it's rather tasteless.
Click to expand...


It’s always dangerous to talk in generalities… (see I’m already in trouble)…

So I don’t know what specifically what Jon Jones is referring to. So he may have a very specific instance where what he says makes perfect sense, but presented in an abstract way without context means anyone can get a hold of it and bend it anyway they wish...

I mean Jim Jannard is classic for that. He post something very open and abstract like “What does professional mean to you… we profess to make professional lenses and cameras and so on” and then it becomes this open mic high school debating society. Interestingly a few days or weeks later it seems from time to time Jim might “garner” the very best “turnns of phrase(s)” that someone might have used. So it seems they (RED) do pay attention, which is to me VERY surprising as this seems to add up to a about a million hours? How this is possible I don’t know.

I have to admit it is a bit of weird symbiotic relationship.


One of the things I most appreciate about REDUSER especially for technical or practical discussions is that one can start out on one premise and then about 180 posts later that you find that one’s mind has been completely changed 180 degrees, not for being weak minded, ill informed etc. but the fact that there are some very good people who can present “the case” very well, providing a proper context.

My favorite posts and topics usually concern sensor technology, de-bayer algorithms, MTF and SONY Q67 and Graeme putting the world to rights. Without being too much of a suck-up, Graeme has it seems a very good sense of humor especially when he is attempting to disarm someone through technical reasoning good wit and good humor. I think THAT is they way to go.

Ta.

Eric
 
I think I can offer some perspective on this topic. I've been around here from the beginning. I started doing the Reduser events in part because I thought it was important for people to get out from behind their avatars and socialize in person. The first event it was great to see people having face to face conversations, very respectful of each other. For some reason, people have a tendency to speak a bit more aggressive on internet forums than they would in person. Perhaps it's a current flaw in this form of communication. My approach has been simple. Treat people with respect whether it's in person or on a forum where I don't have to look the person in the eye. You'll always get the same person.

I want to give an example of what I would consider healthy debate/discussion. Many of you know Tom Lowe or at least know him though Reduser. I have an immense respect for the work Tom does. I think it's some of the best timelapse work out there. Recently Tom and I were on a thread about editing resolution in which Tom and I have differing opinions on whether 4K editing is necessary. Long story short, I feel we can discuss this professionally and it NEVER gets personal. In this particular instance, there was actually no right or wrong answer. The point is, although we both feel a certain way, we have to be able to present our perspective, our opinion in a way that is professional. Because to me, the bigger picture is that it should be easy for people to join that discussion, see the two sides of the discussion, and then perhaps contribute something of their own.

The way some of these threads, especially recently, disintegrate into wildly unproductive, personal, aggressive, unhealthy discussions is a bit disheartening. I know some of you haven't been around here long, or maybe came over from Scarletuser. My suggestion is to you, in order to make this a valuable resource that attracts people of all skill levels and experience, is to think about the following:

1. If you are seeking an answer to a question or need help with an issue, please do full searches before posting a new topic. Try RED's search engine. If that fails, try Google and put Reduser into the string. This is very important. Otherwise the forum gets bogged down with the same posts over and over.

2. If you are looking to make the title of your thread call attention to itself, make sure you have done your homework and you're not just going for shock value. Think these things through. Make sure the thread title is appropriate to the purpose of your thread.

3. If you don't agree with someone, it's okay to let them know that but respond in a way that adds value. If all you can add is a personal attack, don't bother posting a response. Not worth it.

4. Remember, we are all working at different levels of experience. Some are hobbyists, some are entry level professionals, and some are industry veterans. Everyone's perspective is valid. If you are someone lacking experience try to keep an open mind when professionals offer advice. Professionals, when you encounter someone with far less experience try to refrain from attacking them in an all-knowing fashion. This will go a long way to bridging those experience gaps.

5. When responding, take a moment before hitting submit button. Read through response, make sure the tone is what you are intending it to be. If there is a way to clarify that tone, try your best to do that. It can make a difference.

This doesn't have to be a volatile environment. Think for a moment how powerful it can be if the goal is to share knowledge, make connections, see how people do things differently, stay informed about RED and other industry tools. If everyone keeps a calm demeanor, it keeps the potential for a very productive filmmaking experience. If not, we will see more and more threads that don't add much value to that experience and unfortunately working professionals like myself will decide to look elsewhere for those things I just described.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I want to give an example of what I would consider healthy debate/discussion. Many of you know Tom Lowe or at least know him though Reduser. I have an immense respect for the work Tom does. I think it's some of the best timelapse work out there. Recently Tom and I were on a thread about editing resolution in which Tom and I have differing opinions on whether 4K editing is necessary. Long story short, I feel we can discuss this professionally and it NEVER gets personal. In this particular instance, there was actually no right or wrong answer. The point is, although we both feel a certain way, we have to be able to present our perspective, our opinion in a way that is professional. Because to me, the bigger picture is that it should be easy for people to join that discussion, see the two sides of the discussion, and then perhaps contribute something of their own.
Click to expand...

+1

People are starting to take things too personally. I just learned that yesterday.
 
I tend to "sound" agressive when posting, for that I am sorry to all who take offense by it. Maybe it all comes down to passion over something and that if you are convinced about something you might get blinded by it. I try to see beyond that, but in a hot debate people get carried away.

But one thing I never learn is to stop feeding the troll, if someone get offensive in the wrong way I tend to sharpen my waraxe :D

noahvolek said:
lock down membership to RedUser... by invite only.
use scarletuser as a proving grounds where proven members can then join Red User...
Click to expand...

This is not a good idea, maybe you think it is, until the day you don't get an invite.
And for that matter, I know some who's skills in English isn't very good and when they write something some people take offense without their intention to be offensive. Will they be banned because of their english skills?
 
:emote_couch:
Eric Lange said:
So it seems they (RED) do pay attention, which is to me VERY surprising as this seems to add up to a about a million hours? How this is possible I don’t know.



Eric
Click to expand...

Was wondering the same thing maybe they have HAL or have linked up Epic/scarlets together for a mega brain that can handel alien algorithms ? ...........But thats going a bit far whats most likely is Jim has his own version of the CIA that when something important happens the big red phone rings by his bed and is told there is a situation ......im not paranoid or anything but i think the neighbours cat is bugged.
 
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Evan Starkey said:
:emote_couch:

Was wondering the same thing maybe they have HAL or have linked up Epic/scarlets together for a mega brain that can handel alien algorithms ? ...........But thats going a bit far whats most likely is Jim has his own version of the CIA that when something important happens the big red phone rings by his bed and is told there is a situation ......im not paranoid or anything but i think the neighbours cat is bugged.
Click to expand...

I like the “Bat-Phone” idea. It is true that some threads get out of hand and worrying information is presented and then various threads (perhaps like this one).. get shut down; It is a bit like the Stasi (Old, East German Police) as basically this is the main conduit for current information. There IS a surprising amount of freedom, and REDUSER is VERY well moderated. I really don’t know how they do it. But it seems there is about a fifteen minute response time to put a potential fire out it seems.

I have to admit it’s pretty unique.

BTW, you might want to check out that neighbor’s cat, I did notice a slight limp on that left-fore, and some new stitches under its “arm pit”… and if I’m not mistaken I did hear a few crackles of the BBC world service…hmmm

@Evan need to pick your brains about K-cranes some time.

Ta.

Eric
 
Evan Starkey said:
:emote_couch:

Was wondering the same thing maybe they have HAL or have linked up Epic/scarlets together for a mega brain that can handel alien algorithms ? ...........But thats going a bit far whats most likely is Jim has his own version of the CIA that when something important happens the big red phone rings by his bed and is told there is a situation ......im not paranoid or anything but i think the neighbours cat is bugged.
Click to expand...

The clone machine isn't working yet so we have to spend alot of time in between work on reduser to keep up.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I think I can offer some perspective on this topic. I've been around here from the beginning. I started doing the Reduser events in part because I thought it was important for people to get out from behind their avatars and socialize in person. The first event it was great to see people having face to face conversations, very respectful of each other. For some reason, people have a tendency to speak a bit more aggressive on internet forums than they would in person. Perhaps it's a current flaw in this form of communication. My approach has been simple. Treat people with respect whether it's in person or on a forum where I don't have to look the person in the eye. You'll always get the same person.

I want to give an example of what I would consider healthy debate/discussion. Many of you know Tom Lowe or at least know him though Reduser. I have an immense respect for the work Tom does. I think it's some of the best timelapse work out there. Recently Tom and I were on a thread about editing resolution in which Tom and I have differing opinions on whether 4K editing is necessary. Long story short, I feel we can discuss this professionally and it NEVER gets personal. In this particular instance, there was actually no right or wrong answer. The point is, although we both feel a certain way, we have to be able to present our perspective, our opinion in a way that is professional. Because to me, the bigger picture is that it should be easy for people to join that discussion, see the two sides of the discussion, and then perhaps contribute something of their own.

The way some of these threads, especially recently, disintegrate into wildly unproductive, personal, aggressive, unhealthy discussions is a bit disheartening. I know some of you haven't been around here long, or maybe came over from Scarletuser. My suggestion is to you, in order to make this a valuable resource that attracts people of all skill levels and experience, is to think about the following:

1. If you are seeking an answer to a question or need help with an issue, please do full searches before posting a new topic. Try RED's search engine. If that fails, try Google and put Reduser into the string. This is very important. Otherwise the forum gets bogged down with the same posts over and over.

2. If you are looking to make the title of your thread call attention to itself, make sure you have done your homework and you're not just going for shock value. Think these things through. Make sure the thread title is appropriate to the purpose of your thread.

3. If you don't agree with someone, it's okay to let them know that but respond in a way that adds value. If all you can add is a personal attack, don't bother posting a response. Not worth it.

4. Remember, we are all working at different levels of experience. Some are hobbyists, some are entry level professionals, and some are industry veterans. Everyone's perspective is valid. If you are someone lacking experience try to keep an open mind when professionals offer advice. Professionals, when you encounter someone with far less experience try to refrain from attacking them in an all-knowing fashion. This will go a long way to bridging those experience gaps.

5. When responding, take a moment before hitting submit button. Read through response, make sure the tone is what you are intending it to be. If there is a way to clarify that tone, try your best to do that. It can make a difference.

This doesn't have to be a volatile environment. Think for a moment how powerful it can be if the goal is to share knowledge, make connections, see how people do things differently, stay informed about RED and other industry tools. If everyone keeps a calm demeanor, it keeps the potential for a very productive filmmaking experience. If not, we will see more and more threads that don't add much value to that experience and unfortunately working professionals like myself will decide to look elsewhere for those things I just described.
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think there is a bit of a road rage scenario, where people think they are tougher behind a few thousand pounds of steel (or in the case of REDUSER a few hundred or thousands of miles of optical fiber), it all can become rather impersonal to the max.


I fully expect to meet a lot of the folks here on REDUSER and at RED in the future, so I try not rubb too many people the wrong way. Secondly you can never predict what crew of people you may end up working with on a project. ..And exactly as Steve says try to help those that seem to have less experience, knowledge or whatever…because you never know, in a few years you may end up working for them… so it does pay to try and treat people respectfully as your peers. I generally find that someone that may appear weak in one area may have tremendous expertise in another area that could potentially be very useful, but generally they do not advertise the fact or make a big deal about it.


It is interesting a lot of people have gone on about this “souring” of REDUSER. I don’t feel it SO much.. but maybe I hang out in different corridors. I would say six months from now once EVERYBODY has the equipment they need/ordered and are running with the projects that they need to, this will all be ancient history; by then I think the tone of things I think will change quite substantially. I think these are just “growing pains” really and things will naturally sort themselves out for the better. Just patience and tolerance in the mean time.

E.
 
Deanan said:
The clone machine isn't working yet so we have to spend alot of time in between work on reduser to keep up.
Click to expand...

I’ve wondered about that too, as I do notice the times that people (especially RED Team) are about and you think, WOW that’s a hell of a commitment… especially from the “Big Wheels”. That’s a lot of personal time given up to maintain a vague semblance of sanity and useful order on REDSUER.

Cheers,

Eric
 
It seems to me that all the hostility and unuseful threads are being generated in the Scarlet section. I find myself wandering more than often in the EPIC section, just because most of what is being discussed there can be translated to Scarlet. I guess it also tells us something of the fact that Jim has been notoriously absent since the 3rd of november, addressing only a few issues. I feel it is a deliberate way of saying "calm down".
 
+1 to whoever started this thread, lol...

No but seriously, some people here take everything too seriously. I probably disagree what 90% of people on here say about life issues, but you don't see me running my fingers across the keyboard in dispute... Steve is right:

Newbies... Chill
Seniors... Be gentle with the know it all newbies, lol

Steve is also right in the fact that it is easier to talk smack as an internet jockey. Kind of like an armchair quarterback, yelling at the tv for a football player to do this and that and the other... Don't yell about the other player, get up off of your duff and pull your own weight. Instead of sitting around posting all day on RU, go do something.

I'm sure I'll catch hell for posting this, I may have stepped on someones toes...
 
Finished. Hopefully a productive thread will pop up in its place.

Jim
 
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