RED Scarlets in a Broadcast Mobile Sceario?

[Adrian Edson Dean]

If this has been asked, please forward me in the proper direction....

I work at a cable station and we will be upgradeing our mobile soon, requireing us to purchase a new fleet of cameras (5 or 6).

Have RED cameras been used in a mobile-type situation where the cameras all send signals back to a mobile to be swtiched in realtime. I know that isn't the strength or main workflow of the cameras but I am wondering if it is possible?

My concerns are:
1. What is the distance of the Redmotes WIFI (could the cameras be IRISed and controlled from the truck at the other end of a football field?
2. Can the signal from several cameras be routed through a switcher and cut in real-time?
3. Has anyone done this? What's the best way to configure the cameras so that the operators have focus control?
4. What's a good SDI-converter so the cameras can be down-converted to 1080P or even (ahem) 720i?

The intent would be to use a non-R3D file, basically, to capture the feed in realtime and output it (through I'm guessing SDI) to a switcher, then through that to TAPE.

Have others on the forum done this with REDs? I've heard of concert shooters, but usually I think the editing is done in post. Can the cameras do this in a LIVE switching environment?

Please send me any suggestions or feedback. I love RED and I'd love to use Scarlets if it was possible, but if not, please explain what the limitations are.

Thanks!!!!!

Adrian Dean

 

[Ian B. Johnson]

There's no way the Redmotes would work for you in this application, however I believe the Scarlets have an Ethernet connection (requires a lemo to Ethernet adapter) from which you could control the camera. Then using the still in development RED camera control software you could theoretically network them all for iris, start/stop, color painting, etc. Then run hd-sdi line to the switcher like any hd broadcast camera.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

SDI is SDI

SDI is SDI

1) I would not plan on using the Redmote in the manner you described. AFAIK there is no way to shade from the truck other than putting a motor on the iris and controlling it either wired or wirelessly through a dedicated unit.

2) There should be no problem routing SDI through switchers and other standard broadcast gear with all the usual capabilities.

3) Operator focus control can be done several ways including a standard FF with a whip, rigging a motor with the controller gaffed to the handle, etc.

4) AJA, Everetz, Miranda, Grass Valley and many other companies make up/down/cross converters. Suggest you run everything to the switcher at 1080P and then convert the output as needed.

In terms of limitations I see it more as a lens & lens operation issue than a camera issue. The Scarlet has a sensor, it has SDI output, etc... If you have the budget for 24-290 Optimos and a full FIZ set up then Bob's your uncle. There are adapters to allow the use of B4 (typical broadcast video lens) mount glass on PL cameras - I think RED markets one and Abel Cine as well. It will cost you a couple of stops and may limit how much of the sensor you can utilize but it would allow the use of lenses with higher zoom ratios and more industry standard lens control apparatus.

With proper planning doing live multi-cam with Epics or Scarlets is totally doable. That said, you may have issues with crew being asked to operate outside their comfort zone, mechanical issues like gear pitch on lens motors, lack of triax support, etc. Strongly suggest you do at least 2 trial runs before doing a live broadcast so you can address any unforeseen issues. Once you have everyone and everything on the same page it should work a treat.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jack Cooper]

Adrian,

Do you mean "mobile" as in "untethered"...? If your "tethered", but "remote" (like not in the studio) then you have more options. If your coming back to a tri-caster, or similar unit, you should have no problem finding a "connection" from the scarlet to the box. If you mean, untethered, then your options are limited.

We are about to begin testing a "stacked" wireless card solution that is currently on the market. Basically, taking a signal, "chopping" it up into about 8 streams, going wireless with someone like ATT and then having that signal be captured at the studio, mobile truck, etc.

This application would be used in a golf tournament, for example. In a scenario where I am not running hardwire to all the holes, I can take a scarlet, attach to the transmit pack, and have it send that signal.

I think you have some integration testing in front of you, as mentioned in the previous posts.

 

[Craig Weeding]

Hello Adrian

I have done multi camera work with REDs and do not recommend doing a live switch for many reasons.

The output of the RED cameras are 1280 x 720 60P or 1920 x 1080 60P. Most production switchers do not handle 60P video.

The RED camera also do not have CCUs for painting the cameras, I would never try and use the menus on a RED to match cameras live,

Iris control would need to be via a third party solution to have remote control of the Iris.

The color space on the Epic is REDLogFilm or REDGamma2, I am guessing the Scarlet will be similar. Neither one of these settings are close to REC 709 which is the standard for Broadcast HD. No amount of tweaking the camera settings will get you close to REC 709.

There is no tally system for camera operators to know when they are Live on the switch, There is no return video so the operators can see the switch.

The RED cameras are as the company's name says: Digital Cinema cameras not video cameras. They are designed to shoot RAW files which are graded in post, not live. When you shoot this way they are awesome.

 

[Jack Cooper]

Hello Adrian

I have done multi camera work with REDs and do not recommend doing a live switch for many reasons.

The output of the RED cameras are 1280 x 720 60P or 1920 x 1080 60P. Most production switchers do not handle 60P video.

Craig, I think it depends on the complexity of Adrian's workflow. I'm still not sure if Adrian means scenarios like livestreaming. As you may remember with Epic Houston, the team was filming Ketch with 2 Red Ones coming into the Tricaster. The 700 series handles that "HD" stream just fine. We were using BNC inbound from the Red Ones to the box. The box handled the stream seamlessly and internally, Adobe Media Encoder prepared the signal for the upload.

Our testing during this year has really pointed to Livestream and Ustream as being the limiting factors for image quality. In theory, the inbound from Scarlet should work just fine on in a live switching environment on a remote truck. Again, I think the clarification is whether its a hardline or wireless transmit preference.

 

[Craig Weeding]

Hello Jack

I agree that in the right controlled situation, Multi camera red production can happen.

Ravi was specifically referring to a cable stations remote truck that would be facing a large variety of indoor and out door production with 5 or 6 cameras.
Normally in a remote live broadcast situation the production switcher has multiple mix effect buses, keyers, mat generators etc... and of course is quick to operate.
If you are outdoors and there is changing cloud cover iris control is critical.

I am not saying it is impossible to do it, I just do not see a cable station remote truck crew being able to provide the same level of quality and control for live remote production with RED cameras as with Video production cameras designed for the mission.

Of course there can always be work arounds, for example you could get a Arri Cube and place it down stream from the switcher to convert to REC 709 etc...

I think the situation requires a clear look of the pros and cons of using Video cameras VS REDs, REDs may be possible, I not sure that for Ravi and his cable station they are practical.

 

[Adrian Edson Dean]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the lighting fast replies - I wasn't expecting so much knowledge so quickly!

I was reffering to mobile as in broadcasting from a truck to do live or live to tape products from a mobile. The goal was to use SDI from the cameras to a swicther in a truck.

So my biggest hurdles will be color space (trying to match cameras to rec 709) and controlling the cameras remotely (until the etherent solution is up and running) and tally.

I'm just exploring ideas at this point so I'm not trying to fit a square into round whole so to speak, but I jsut wanted to see if RED could work as a solution....

thanks for all the advice!

 

[Adrian Edson Dean]

The plan would be similar, hardbound with BNC cables is what I assume we would try to do.

 

[Alex Frausto]

Adrian, I used to build TV trucks back in the late 90's and applaud you for trying something out of the ordinary for that segment of the industry.

With that said.....I would not have the balls to build a truck with these cameras, I see too many issues that would be unacceptable in a live broadcast production environment.

Good luck!

 

[Philippe Van Horebeek]

Hi Adrian,

Wise things are said here. I only want to emphasize the argument that the quality video production cameras out there, especially designed for that kind of a job, are much better equipped for the task.

Your main concern is camera control I think. Having control over the iris isn't enough for camera shading ! You need control over color, black level, gamma ..... . I guess you can do that when you convert the signal from the Epic or Scarlet in the truck.

But if you do : BE SURE you convert the signal to REC709 BEFORE processing the signal through the production switcher !!!! Otherwise you'll get in trouble with your keyers, internal/external effect generators, and basically anything downstream from the production switcher.

The vision mixer gets in danger of creating non existing broadcast signals (working out of the REC709 color space).

Lack of tally and return video can be solved, but in a cumbersome way (lots of extra cables).