Will Scarlet be capable of long recording times?

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

95% of the work I'm paid to do would be accomplished better with Scarlet Fixed. :laugh: However, as I currently understand the Scarlet specs, 5% of work I'm paid to do would be practically impossible with a Scarlet fixed camera. I'm talking about the times when a client really wants hours of footage filmed. As things currently stand filming 16 hours of speeches on Scarlet fixed would be too expensive in SSD's, Post Prod Hard Drive storage and transcoding to deliverables which would doubtless be really small: 640x360 heavily compressed. I know that I could buy another device to plug into my Scarlet which would do this task but that would be very expensive in relation to the price of the camera, and it would also require it's own power which would mean carrying another charger and batteries, and I'm already at the very limit of what I can check in and carry on; actually I exceeding carry-on weight a long time ago LOL:scared::scared:

Scarlet sounds great for the 95% but the problem is that if you can't do the 5% the client will look around to give the whole 100% to someone else.. As things stand in the camera market that would be someone with an older Sony, Panasonic, or Canon camcorder... the cameras that RED Scarlet fixed should we all hope be rendering obsolete.

The other feature I really need in a camera is to be able to live stream the content. So basically from a camera point of view to get the media out of the camera and into my mac. Again I know that some products can be bought to achieve this but they are very expensive relative to the price of the camera and would create extra carry-on weight that I don't have available.

Can RED deliver these features in Scarlet? First off I'd like to state that I don't care if there are minor compression artefacts in the recoded image and I don't need the image to be full HD. Neither does the client. Honestly, believe me, they don't. They just need it recorded and/or streamed, and it will be only ever put out on the net small and heavily compressed. The reason I want to make that clear is that I know RED are obsessed with producing beautiful, perfect images, and making RAW recording really work. And we all love them for that revolution!! But in this case I really need RED to give me the footage any old how.. H.264, DV, Redcode 0, whatever..

What do you think? Does anyone else perceive this problem? I'm not talking about the stuff that makes us all happy: making films and so on. I'm talking about the boring stuff that pays for the equipment.. I've got to stay focussed on that as well, and I really need a camera that will do everything I need it to everyday

 

[Kalani Prince]

I'm guessing it will record as long as the SSD can hold.

 

[Deanan]

at 2k and RC 12:1, that's about 16 hours on a 256GB mag.

 

[jimhare]

That's even long enough for me! :laugh:

 

[Erwin Vanderhoydonks]

Can you explain Red Code 12:1 for me ? It has something to do with compression, but you explain this with some examples, please? Thanks for the feedback...

at 2k and RC 12:1, that's about 16 hours on a 256GB mag.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

thanks Deanan

A 256GB SSD costs $3200. Now of course we don't know what Scarlet fixed will cost (and I don't expect you to give any hints before Nov 3rd LOL), but let say $6000. One 256GB mag would likely cover it, but you would want a spare because the other 95% of the job which is the high value stuff also needs to be filmed. Assuming Scarlet comes with an SSD, it's not going to be 256GB if the total camera price is around $6000, so we're going to have to buy one to make the camera work for this job. So you've just reinforced my main point: which is that as it stands Scarlet doesn't seem to have a recording codec which is efficient enough to make this type of work profitable, especially when you factor in HD storage and transcoding.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hopefully the hdmi/sdi tap on the Scarlet will give you the option to record a nice signal to a computer, as well, when you reall do need those 256 hours of continuus 1080p full debayer from full sensor recordings....

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

would hdmi/sdi not require some sort of intermediary device?

 

[Bastiaan Maat]

thanks Deanan

A 256GB SSD costs $3200. Now of course we don't know what Scarlet fixed will cost (and I don't expect you to give any hints before Nov 3rd LOL), but let say $6000. One 256GB mag would likely cover it, but you would want a spare because the other 95% of the job which is the high value stuff also needs to be filmed. Assuming Scarlet comes with an SSD, it's not going to be 256GB if the total camera price is around $6000, so we're going to have to buy one to make the camera work for this job. So you've just reinforced my main point: which is that as it stands Scarlet doesn't seem to have a recording codec which is efficient enough to make this type of work profitable, especially when you factor in HD storage and transcoding.

Well, you do point out that SSD storage is reletively expensive comparred to the camera when we talk about Scarlets. My hope is that with the larger need for the SSD's prices will go down and that the ratio will shift for the better. Time will tell... Even Red does not exactly know how big a hit Scarlet will be. For me the amount of SSD storage (with my budget) is what's my bigest hurdle to overcome with the Scarlet.

 

[David Rasberry]

There are multiple ways to setup for long form documentation or streaming. Teradek Cube and a laptop with recording software would cost no more than a 256GB SSD and give you both live streaming and efficient H.264 recording for the kinds of tasks you do. Teradek streams over WiFi so you would not even need to be tethered to the laptop. You could still record to SSD for backup.

I just set up systems for a college sports facility where we are using HDSDI output from Canon camcorders to stream live sports events to Ustream TV and record to the streaming PC at the same time using Black Magic capture cards and Ustream software. There are reasonable low cost solutions for what you need that Scarlet can support.
I would rather have 4 64GB SSD's than 1 256GB. Seems like more than 4 hours continuous recording without any kind of break would be a rare occurrence.

 

[Graeme Hay]

There are products like this which may be able to allow you to live stream with the right software.
http://philipbloom.net/2010/09/17/wireless-hd-streaming-from-hdmi-or-sdi-a-very-cool-product/

There is also the Ninja/Samurai which will record your video output to 1080p prores
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/26/atomos-ninja-and-samurai-hd-video-recorder-monitors-bring-comp/

They both cast money ($1000-2000 each) but they will allow you to do what you want, and it will be a cost savings vs. Buying SSD cards which are quite expensive given the price range most people are hoping the scarlet will come in at.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Yeah Teradek make nice products but like the 256 SSD they are expensive as a percentage of the cost of the camera. Also that would be another piece of kit which needs power and to be transported to the job, which is actually even more of an issue, especially as clients are prone to suddenly decide something absolutely MUST be done after I've arrived already. I fly to very single job I do, so carry-on weight is a big challenge..
I'm banging on about this because I suspect that RED are not supplying this feature principally because it goes against their ideology. It just seems unlikely that a solution which is cheaply incorporated into every little camcorder or even smartphone on the market today, cannot be similarly built into every Scarlet. But RED are about perfect images and RAW. Which is great 95% of the time and seemingly a major challenge 5%.

I'm wondering if RED can make us a red code 1:100..???? (not really understanding what the numbers signify I'm assuming its a scaling ratio from uncompressed)

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

thanks Graeme, you know I'd forgotten about the Teradek cube also enabling remote monitoring on mac/ipad.. that IS very cool...

 

[Steve Wake]

Fergus,

My paid work is similar to yours, though I don't fly to jobs. The job David described is pretty close to a lot of my paid work. Asking RED to prioritize solutions to our needs may be a bit much.

First, when RED says they make products for professionals and aspiring professionals, I think they really mean digital CINEMA professionals. If EFP folks can take advantage of their products' adaptability, good for us, but don't expect them to cater to our needs.

Second, there are plenty of third party add-on solutions. As far as I'm concerned, the prices are reasonable. Now if you're thinking, "I could use a $4,700 Panasonic AG-AC160 for 95% of what I do" then you need to figure out if the extra 5% that is enabled by Scarlet is worth the cost of admission. I look at it the opposite way: "Scarlet is essential for the docs I want to make, and isn't it great I can also use it to make money with rented (or owned) add-ons." And as a bonus to customers and possible door-opener to more jobs, it offers higher quality and ability to pull excellent stills for web or small print publication.

How right I am about my first point above should become a lot more clear on Nov. 3. The number one change I'm hoping for is HD-SDI. This would make Scarlet more "pro" for EVERYONE.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Fergus, depending on November 3rd details. this may be the wrong camera for the job. I know we all want the best, but at some point budget wins out. It happens at all levels. There are quite a few things I'd like to have because they would make my production world much better, but at the end of the day the money just isn't there to justify it. If clients demand it, for example in your case they demand a certain level of quality only achieved by Scarlet, then it means that you are are able to charge more and perhaps justify the investment.

November 3rd, hopefully we all know a lot more about Scarlet and hopefully it fits into your budget.

 

[Werner Jauch]

I suspect that at those settings the mag is being written to rather slowly. The expense of Red SSD Mags makes sense for the high data rates for EPIC, not so much for Scarlet 3K . Is there any hope that, at certain recording settings, Scarlet can record on SD or CF cards, perhaps restricted by card manufacturer, as was the case with Red One and Lexar cards?

 

[Michael Dorian Bach]

thanks Deanan

A 256GB SSD costs $3200. Now of course we don't know what Scarlet fixed will cost (and I don't expect you to give any hints before Nov 3rd LOL), but let say $6000. One 256GB mag would likely cover it, but you would want a spare because the other 95% of the job which is the high value stuff also needs to be filmed. Assuming Scarlet comes with an SSD, it's not going to be 256GB if the total camera price is around $6000, so we're going to have to buy one to make the camera work for this job. So you've just reinforced my main point: which is that as it stands Scarlet doesn't seem to have a recording codec which is efficient enough to make this type of work profitable, especially when you factor in HD storage and transcoding.

Just curious. Can someone explain why the SSD cost 3200 for a 256 when you can pick up 256 1.8 laptop drive for 500 bucks? Even an ultra-fast top of the line one. What's so different from the RED? Can't we just use standard SSD drives from other manufacturers?

Excuse my newbie-ness

Michael

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Just curious. Can someone explain why the SSD cost 3200 for a 256 when you can pick up 256 1.8 laptop drive for 500 bucks? Even an ultra-fast top of the line one. What's so different from the RED? Can't we just use standard SSD drives from other manufacturers?

Excuse my newbie-ness

Michael

Once you actually try writing high bitrate video data at a sustained rate, you'll quickly realize that the manufacturers specs are a lie. You'll also realize that the Tom's hardware speed reports are for writing general data, where controller hiccups for a 1/4 second don't amount to much except a little lower overall throughput. However, the controller hiccups are showstoppers when high bitrate video data is being written. A single dropped frame when recording video data is not option. You must have a proven and reliable drive system.

You'll also learn that most SSD use controller gimmicks that amount to de-deplication and compression, in order to get their bogus throughput specs up. This works fine for writing Word files but is horrible when your data stream can't be compressed further (like compressed video data).

This is why RED SSD are expensive. Because they work and you can use them for the intended purpose, without them failing on you in the middle of a shoot.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

this is all very true, but I do think that as Werner said, the Scarlet 2/3 is not the same beast as the Epic.

I think that the business case for Scarlet 2/3 (esp fixed) is very different from Epic. you're just not going to use the scarlet for the same jobs as epic, the revenue generated will be less and so the cost of the camera and all the extras needed to make it really work in most environments need to be less expensive too. I'd hazard that the cost of dropping frames on a scarlet filming a doc will be less than the cost of an epic dropping frames filming a big action sequence on a $100M feature, so overall scarlet owners could live with less perfection and corresponding cost than epic users can I imagine

 

[Bastiaan Maat]

this is all very true, but I do think that as Werner said, the Scarlet 2/3 is not the same beast as the Epic.

I think that the business case for Scarlet 2/3 (esp fixed) is very different from Epic. you're just not going to use the scarlet for the same jobs as epic, the revenue generated will be less and so the cost of the camera and all the extras needed to make it really work in most environments need to be less expensive too. I'd hazard that the cost of dropping frames on a scarlet filming a doc will be less than the cost of an epic dropping frames filming a big action sequence on a $100M feature, so overall scarlet owners could live with less perfection and corresponding cost than epic users can I imagine

Yes, do hope Red comes with a "lower" performing SSD for the Scarlet at a more Scarlet like price. Nov 3rd...