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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Team - Official RED-certified ProRes / DNxHD recorders?

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Bruce Allen

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Dear RED Team

To help Epic beat Alexa on more broadcast jobs, one "low-hanging fruit" is to hit at their "ProRes advantage"...

Personally, I would seldom shoot only ProRes for my own personal stuff. Drives me nuts. BUT producers doing broadcast projects like the workflow speed and familiarity. Quality is still "good enough" (and if you're recording R3Ds as well, you can always go back to the RAW files - best of both worlds IMHO).

AJA Ki Pro Mini and Sound Devices PIX240 can record ProRes and DNxHD from Epic HD-SDI with start/stop and metadata that matches R3D files, right?

Why not officially announce that those recorders are RED-certified?

Maybe it seems unnecessary... but people like using a certified solution. One less thing to worry about. Less fear of being fired if you're using ze official solution(TM) and following ze instructions in ze official handbook!

Alexa has an "official" ProRes solution built in. RED could just announce in Recon that these 3rd party recorders are officially certified - and put up a document on Red.com's Support site explaining how to use Epic with these recorders, again, noting that they are officially certified.

If AJA and Sound Devices were smart, they'd be pestering you for this too. But it would really help you guys too, so why not just do it?

Future suggestions:
- Official Red Module that does ProRes or DNxHD
- More control over color so we can get the spiffy color look of our dreams on the ProRes file and client monitor (either built into Epic or through a 3rd party or Red LOOKBOX module... heck add some stereo keystoning, convergence and mirror rig color compensation functions as well if you want - or just keep it simple and give us a 3D LUT :)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Jarred Land said:
We both have announced it... AJA even did an official press release.. http://www.aja.com/news/index_article.php?id=153 not sure how much more we can do.
Click to expand...

I know, man!

...but I know of several Epic owners who still don't know about this. They don't read aja.com or www.sounddevices.com because they don't know these devices even exist.

I'd bet most busy producers considering Epic have NO IDEA.

1. Put it in its own thread on RECON! Under the title "RED Epic - ProRes & DNxHD Supported Recorders (with metadata)" or something.

Mark Pederson's thread is the first thing that comes up when you Google it - he's cool (understatement)... but a producer renting an Epic might not take his word as highly as an official RED press release.

2. Put it on Red.com - a sentence or two on LEARN and a 1-page PDF on SUPPORT section telling you to plug in the HD-SDI cable and promising this is an officially-supported solution with metadata intact.

3. Mention it again on Nov 3 when everyone's listening?

With Alexa, it's kinda the first thing you read... with Epic maybe it should be the 5th thing you read, but still on the top 10.

I dunno - anyone else have better ideas? Just brainstorming how to help my Epic-owning friends become rich getting their cams onto tons of jobs (and crushing Alexa in the process - feel this last part after reading a certain thread... good heavens).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Hey Bruce,

I was trying to look for the evidences of PIX240 if it supports metadata through the HDSDI, but does it really support it?
 
I second this. I've heard many being totally in the dark about the ProRes recording capabilities of Epic with KiPro. Oh often set talk is unnerving, if I only count all the times I've heard the alexa being praised for the prores recording capabilities: because it's easy. Oh man, you'd want to cry!
 
i am also confused by this. A lot of people would like a pro res module , if Red are not going to build one then the KiPro mini seems like a good option.
Aja claim that it can also be used with the Red One although with live 720p output and look around i doubt anyone would want to edit it.
Can the KiPro deal with high frame rates ?
 
Red Epic and Red One record R3D Raw onboard at the native resolution of the camera. This far outweighs HD ProRes in terms of the amount of information you are recording.
People are wanting to use Pix 240 and AJA Ki Pro Mini as recorders for pre-transcoded offline material at the end of the day without the need for renders and a rocket.

No Red does not do this but Alexa does not record it's full resolution Raw on-board unless you buy a fairly expensive off-board recorder.
There's always a trade-off.

Kaku Ito:
Yes the Pix works with record-pulse, filename and Timecode from the Red & Epic via HD-SDI, we tested it yesterday and it works well.
Straight to drive and straight into FCP or Avid when you are done. Both that and the Ki Pro Mini are excellent recording devices for this kind of purpose.

Won't work for high speed stuff though as I'm sure you realise.
 
pity none of these are "modular" as the design of the EPIC system is to click connect devices onto the camera which has a lot to be said for itself.
Is the modular design still possible as we haven't seen any modules.
Wireless HD video anyone?
 
Johnny Friday said:
why are none of these externa rec devices able to rec. 4444 ? seems every one i look at is 422. Is there a tech problem to rec. 4444 or is it a jump in $$$ what's the deal?
Click to expand...

Gemini 4:4:4 - around $6000, records uncompressed to SSD:
http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Gemini444/tabid/1870/Default.aspx

Or go straight to a mac mini with SSD and Blackmagic thunderbolt box with 4:4:4 HD-SDI?

Would look a little bit odd sitting on the back of an Epic though...

Yeah I know - you mean ProRes444. Nope, nobody does that yet, I think!

I think that if you care about 444 quality, it's better to just create those from the R3D on a computer so you get the full debayer anyway - doesn't Epic only do 1/2 Res Best deBayer for its HD-SDI out? It looks good but maybe isn't 4:4:4 level perfect?

If you're going for "good enough for a quick edit and later go back to the R3Ds if you have time", 422 DNxHD or ProRes fits the bill though?

Jarek Zabczynski said:
Can don't think HDMI or Single HDSDI can carry a 4444 signal.
Click to expand...

Oh man... I wish that cameras gave me a 4:4:4:4 (R,G,B and Alpha) signal! Would cut down on post green screen time for sure! Or they could do a depth channel instead of Alpha... I'm not picky. Wasn't that one of the first suggestions for Red back in the DVXuser days? It can be done!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Gemini 4:4:4 - around $6000, records uncompressed to SSD:
http://www.convergent-design.com/Products/Gemini444/tabid/1870/Default.aspx

Or go straight to a mac mini with SSD and Blackmagic thunderbolt box with 4:4:4 HD-SDI?

Would look a little bit odd sitting on the back of an Epic though...

Yeah I know - you mean ProRes444. Nope, nobody does that yet, I think!

I think that if you care about 444 quality, it's better to just create those from the R3D on a computer so you get the full debayer anyway - doesn't Epic only do 1/2 Res Best deBayer for its HD-SDI out? It looks good but maybe isn't 4:4:4 level perfect?

If you're going for "good enough for a quick edit and later go back to the R3Ds if you have time", 422 DNxHD or ProRes fits the bill though?



Oh man... I wish that cameras gave me a 4:4:4:4 (R,G,B and Alpha) signal! Would cut down on post green screen time for sure! Or they could do a depth channel instead of Alpha... I'm not picky. Wasn't that one of the first suggestions for Red back in the DVXuser days? It can be done!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

You need dual stream HD SDI for 4:4:4
 
Stephen Williams said:
You need dual stream HD SDI for 4:4:4
Click to expand...

I'm confused. Epic can output single-link 3G HD-SDI 4:4:4 and Gemini can record single-link 3G HD-SDI 4:4:4, right? Did I miss something?

Again, AJA Ki Pro Mini and Sound Devices Pix 240 still sound like better choices because:
- Gemini doesn't sync metadata / filenames / timecode with Epic (?)
- 4:2:2 is generally good enough... the people who care about 4:4:4 would likely rather have R3Ds?
- Gemini doesn't offer 4:4:4 compressed recording option
- plus preamp advantages of Sound Devices
...?

I like the stereo options for the Convergent Devices stuff though. I asked Sound Devices about stereo sync / recording options in the future for their Pix recorders at CineGear and just got a blank stare and a "naaah", which was sad because I'd just told them how much I loved their stuff, how I cherish my 702T etc...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Yes, you can record 444 over 3G single link to the Gemini. You can also do it to the Cinedeck in 3G or dual link. That recorder (about $8.5K) can record uncompressed, Cineform, ProRes or DNxHD. It's also a 7" monitor with waveform, vectorscope, focus assist, peaking, pixel-to-pixel zoom and other features. The Gemini has a 6" screen and is physically much smaller, lighter, and less power-hungry. Both are retty powerful and both work with RED cameras.
 
The recorder may accept it, but the epic is only outputting 422 over a single HD-SDI stream at this time.
 
Yes, of course. But it may be worthwhile to some to remember that the R1 can output 1080p 444 playback.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Yes, of course. But it may be worthwhile to some to remember that the R1 can output 1080p 444 playback.
Click to expand...

It may be 1080P 4:4:4 but its still a "quick" debayer so if quality is your quest its still an offline path in my book.

FWIW I would love to see Sound Devices and RED work together to create the next generation version of the Pro I/O module. The PIX 240 offers a compelling core for such an offering with state of the art audio quality, portable form factor, TC generator/reader, ProRes or DNxHD transcodes on the fly (with multiple format conversion options) and that terrific Sound Devices build quality. I know it may be more difficult than it sounds but couldn't you just build a bracket/casing that fits on an Epic module adapter and Bob's your uncle? Just asking'...

Cheers - #19
 
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