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What is the serial number of RED ONE allowed to use the Birger Mount?

Kaku Ito

Kaku Ito

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What is the serial number of RED ONE allowed to use the Birger Mount?
 
There was a form that had to be filled out. So it won't be easy to determine such as "every RED ONE below #7000" or something like that. Regardless of serial number, it would only be approved on RED ONEs that had the official paper work on file before the mount was disallowed. I wouldn't trust that the Birger is approved for any particular camera without seeing the paperwork and/or confirming with RED. I seem to recall when we did ours, we filed a form with Birger who then sent a copy to RED. Both Birger and RED should have a record of this.
 
Jamison,

Thanks. I guess we should stay away, just stick to Epic with the canon lens mount.
 
Has nothing to do with RED One serial number. Essentially there are some Birger mounts which were "grandfathered" into acceptance if they were purchased before a certain date and the proper form is on file with RED.

IMO, unless you already have an approved Birger mount, don't go near one with a 10-foot pole.
 
Just a little technicality, but it is the camera that was approved for a Birger mount, not vice versa. Basically there was a window where one could register to be certified by Birger to install the mount. If that certification was granted and the proper form signed (which included amongst other things the camera serial #), Birger passed that information on to RED. Other than that, exactly as Jamison and Jeff said.
 
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And according to my bomb squad rep, installing it now does not void eligibility for out of pocket service including MX upgrades, it just voids your warranty and epic upgrade path. So if you have an out of warranty R1 that you plan to keep, it should be fine to put the Birger on.

I wish Red would just make their own Canon mount for the R1 though...
 
Perhaps my wording above was a bit harsh, but for someone buying a new RED One, or trying to maintain a RED One for trade-in via the Stage-3 EPIC-X program, the reasoning holds. I am not totally aware of all the details for both sides of the dispute between RED and Birger Engineering. Not going to pretend to be. But the fact still remains, right or wrong, that the Birger Canon mount is an unsupported product in the eyes of RED. It will void a camera's warranty. It will also nullify the ability to upgrade that camera or trade in that camera, even when past warranty, if RED can tell the mount was ever installed. Some mounts were installed prior to RED handing down their divine proclamation. Those cameras have a Birger Mount hall-pass, so to speak.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Perhaps my wording above was a bit harsh, but for someone buying a new RED One, or trying to maintain a RED One for trade-in via the Stage-3 EPIC-X program, the reasoning holds. I am not totally aware of all the details for both sides of the dispute between RED and Birger Engineering. Not going to pretend to be. But the fact still remains, right or wrong, that the Birger Canon mount is an unsupported product in the eyes of RED. It will void a camera's warranty. It will also nullify the ability to upgrade that camera or trade in that camera, even when past warranty, if RED can tell the mount was ever installed. Some mounts were installed prior to RED handing down their divine proclamation. Those cameras have a Birger Mount hall-pass, so to speak.
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In essence Jeff is right that you need to be very careful with using a Birger mount if you weren't approved by Red. However I'm not sure if it was only for a specific camera - safest thing is to check with Red about your specific situation.

I will say I think there has been a LOT of misinformation/misimpression put out about the Birger mount. Obviously I can't know everything that Red knows but I know a fair bit, and some that Red may not know.

First off, to clarify one part of it, to my knowledge the only two cameras that were damaged due to a true fault in the Birger mount were my 206 and one of my customer's. We had the first two birger mounts = that we pressured Birger to ship before fully tested due to a dive expedition that was upcoming. Those two mounts plugged into the RS-232/lens port on the Redone and due to a firmware issue were doing a calibration procedure that was overdrawing current and over the course of several uses burned out something in that circuit. That problem was corrected by Birger, but to avoid the possibility of it happening again to a possibly vulnerable circuit, all of the production Birger mounts drew power from the rear accessory 12V port.

The two cameras that were damaged were fixed by Red, one at a charge of several thousand dollars and mine - since I was sort of the Canon mount pioneer - was fixed for free - for which I am very grateful.

I can see how that created something of a panic at Red, but in hindsight since I have been in touch with a large number of Birger users besides myself over several years of usage, and know of no others that created damage to the R1, I think the shutdown of the Birger mount may have been a bit of an overreaction. It's kind of sad to me because the Birger has been a tremendous way of working with the R1 and I think the overwhelming response to the Epic Canon mount is an indication that for a very large number of users the Canon mount is a great way to go. I'm very excited to get my hands on the RED canon mount for Epic-M and X and have already caused a good number of my housing customers to place Epic Canon mount orders.
 
OUCH, yes, I remember that! But, the $1000 plus dollars that it cost to fix one of our cameras was reimbursed by Birger and today I am the very proud owner of 4 Birger mounts. Plus, the new way that Birger plugs into the back of the Red1 camera's 12V port has never caused any problems to any of my cameras for more than 4 years now. PLUS, we could have NEVER accomplished what we did without the combination of the Red1 camera, Birger mount and Canon Glass. I am very happy to now see that Red is presently offering the Canon mount for Epic. I love the canon L-series glass and think Canon offers a great collection of prime lenses. Get them all if you can, especially the 85mm Prime which is my favorite. I am not sure if Red will ever offer a Canon mount for the Red1 camera, but until they do, the only clear choice seems to be the Birger mount if you want to use Canon Glass.

TRUST ME! If I could afford to own REAL PL-mount glass I would. We priced Angenieux PL-mount lenses against Canon for our necessary focal length needs and the price difference was $125,000 to $10,000.

I dream of owning two Optimo lenses someday. If I could only afford the Angenieux Optimo 15-40mm T2.6 Zoom Lens and Angenieux Optimo 24-290mm T2.8 Zoom Lenses!! OMG!!

And since we are dreaming, I want a Preston Zoom + Focus motor system too! And for that matter I want an EPIC-M too! Oh this dream is getting good!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It will also nullify the ability to upgrade that camera or trade in that camera, even when past warranty, if RED can tell the mount was ever installed.
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As I said earlier, my bomb squad rep (after talking to his supervisor) said that having an unsupported mount installed does not affect the MX upgrade eligibility, but it does make it so they can't properly check back focus (I assume that means to send the camera in with the PL mount installed) and even if you pay the $100 evaluation fee, you will not get the 90 day warranty on the upgrade. I'm assuming this is correct as the bomb squad rep specifically said he conferred with his supervisor on the policy. Probably the best bet though is if buying a second hand M sensored R1, get the MX upgrade first and install the Birger later...
 
Birger Back focus- Null Target and Century HD Collimator

Birger Back focus- Null Target and Century HD Collimator

Andrew you reminded me of a great point for anyone who is asking about the Birger mount. The Birger back focus adjustment isn't easy and can be very difficult if you don't have the right tools. Luckily, back focus isn't something that is adjusted daily. Well, at least not for most applications. Some ACs will set back focus and or shim everytime sticks are moved. I do NOT suggest setting the Birger back focus in the field EVER. You will halt the progress of any production and could get yourself into a bad position. Probably one that doesn't get you invited back to the next set. Not a good idea.

We have found two great tools for setting and adjusting back focus for either the Red PL mount back focus or the Birger back focus.

Red's PL-mount's back focus adjustment is a fantastic design and makes adjusting back focus a breeze in the field within four microns accuracy.

The EB/E Null Lens and Null target
http://www.ibe-optics.com/NullTarget_RED_Utility

Schneider Optics HD Collimator
https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1098&IID=1069

But, setting back focus with Birger is a whole different story. It is time consuming and the mount has to be taken apart for each adjustment.

If you don't want to purchase either of the above tools, setting the Birger back focus can be achieved fairly accurately with large screen TV and a Siemens Star Chart.

None the less, this dreaded process has to be done. We set up a 52" or 70" Sharp Flat panel and run HD-SDI from the camera to an AJA Hi-5 mini converter that converts HDSDI to HDMI for the TV HDMI input. We then get our Siemens Star chart that has been blown up to 2' by 2' and place the chart at about 5-6' from the camera. I like to set back focus with a medium sized lens like the Canon 16mm-35mm lens or better yet, the Canon 24mm-70mm. Starting with the lens in the zoomed-in position, We adjust the lens focus until the chart moires. We then adjust the lens to the wide position and determine if the lens held focus and that the chart remained moired throughout the entire focal range. If not, you must remove the front portion of the Birger mount and loosen the back portion of the Birger mount and spin the inner ring either clockwise or counter clockwise in very small increments. After each adjustment it is necessary to re-install the front portion of the mount, re-tighten all the screws and replace the lens. The process is then repeated until the lens holds focus through-out the entire focal length range. When the siemens star maintains the moireing effect in both wide and zoom position, the back focus is set. It is important to understand that non Cine lenses are not really designed to hold back focus and will never hold critical back focus like a real cine style lens does. I am sure that some lenses are better than others. I really suggest that if your production has a zoom that you rent yourself PL-glass and get a lens that is geared. Not just that, production zooms require pinpoint accuracy on ramping up to a zoom and ramping down at the end of a zoom and maintaining a constant speed throughout the zoom. It is very difficult to do a smooth zoom by hand. Resetting the set can be so much easier with a preston of varizoom motor setup. A high quality zoom motor and real cine style glass is the best way to achieve great zoom transitions and have dead on back focus throughout the zoom transition.

But, then again, if your like me and cannot afford to rent or buy preston motors and Cine style glass then the only remaining choice is Birger, Canon glass and repeated takes until your zoom is perfect.

I am just trying to help share my experience with Birger. I love my Birger mount and feel for the people that will never have a chance to work with a Birger mount on their red camera. There are so many people breaking into the industry that just don't have hollywood budgets and have no choice but to find alternatives. When you think about it, demand is always what creates and makes revolutionary changes to products and forces people to think outside the box. After all, that is what Red is all about, Red has thought outside the box and thats why Red kicks A$$!
 
lonny dill said:
But, setting back focus with Birger is a whole different story. It is time consuming and the mount has to be taken apart for each adjustment.
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I shot on #99 with an approved Birger for 2 years, shooting just about every other week. We swapped from PL to Birger many many times and never had an issue. 15-30 minutes to mount swap and collimate, not a big deal... Assuming you don't have Shrek hands and inpatient. Critical BF with the Birger is a non issue as very few Canon zooms hold focus when zoomed and all EOS lenses focus past infinity. Just train yourself to set zoom position, then set focus.
 
Hi Guys,

Before I went on vacation I was set to purchase a Birger but again I am not sure. Everytime a new thread is posted I read differing results from one extreme to the other. Would really like a Birger rep to step in.

Cheers
 
I should add that, from my encounters David's technical skills are quite a bit above average user/operator (although he never admits it) and things easy to him may not necessarily be easy to another. That said setting up flange on the Birger is very straight forward as long as one understands it and follows the procedure correctly.
After reading Lonny's suggestions there are some inconsistencies that will make it-well- inconsistent... Maybe that's the reason he finds it hard.....
But I digress and, hopefully, Erik will chime in here as he is the one that knows it best.....
 
Robert Knoll said:
Before I went on vacation I was set to purchase a Birger but again I am not sure. Everytime a new thread is posted I read differing results from one extreme to the other. Would really like a Birger rep to step in.
Click to expand...

There are thousands birger lens mounts out in the wild, nearly 400 on red cameras. I will reiterate, no cameras made by red or any other manufacturer were ever harmed by the use of a production Birger lens mount. Any statement to the contrary is just not true. I am not even aware of a single user that has had the misfortune of putting a screwdriver through a filter or a sensor. There are a couple of people that have damaged the rather poorly thought out /i-data cable coming out of the front of the camera. Many customers have done the same switching to "approved" lens mounts. We were an "approved" lens mount. The reason we aren't any longer, doesn't have anything to do with the product causing any damage to the camera.

Damage to the /i-data cable is highly unlikely to occur if people are careful and take their time. We offer a PL mount option for those customers that would like to switch back and forth, and don't want to concern themselves with this issue. Your favorite camera tech will have no trouble doing the install, should you not feel comfortable doing it your self. AbelCine (LA) has installed quite a few. The assembly instructions are at:
http://www.birger.com/pdf/assembly_instructions_large.pdf

I announced on twitter that we are running a promotion to coincide with the new availability of used red ones, now that the epicXs are shipping:
http://twitter.com/ErikBirger

I do not find reduser to be the right environment to support our customers. Contact us directly, if you have any questions, by telephone, or on the web:
http://www.birger.com/contact-us.aspx
 
Hey!

Well I did purchase the Birger and the new PL accessory. Have not installed yet but looking forward to giving it a go. My goal is to be able to rapidly change between about a dozen RED lenses and about eight Canons with no fuss and no muss. Has anyone used RED focus with the Birger?
To be continued!

Cheers
 
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