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Open letter to RED; what should I do regarding Stage 2?

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benedictspence

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Dear RED dudes,

I'm having a bit of a dilemma here regarding my purchase of an Epic-X and I'd really like some advice from the smart people at RED. I've owned my Red One for 3 years now, it's been a great camera to me. I've used it myself on some fantastic projects and I've earned money from dry hiring it. It was the first professional camera I ever bought and I still love it. I signed up for an Epic-X, stage 2... Brilliantly excited about all the features it was going to bring. Like everyone (RED foremost I'm sure) I was frustrated by the delays. When the Epic-M was announced I knew I had to buy one, firstly to get on the ground floor of the Epic program, not knowing when the delays would end for the Epic-X, secondly and most importantly it was so that I could compete with all those big facilities companies and individuals who were now buying Epic-M's but had not owned a Red One. I absolutely understand RED's position on the Epic-M, I truly do, but the fact is it has allowed many companies and people to skip "the queue". This is not a criticism, just an observation.

Now I have the problem of soon needing to purchase an Epic-X. With the best will in the world I don't think that I need the Epic-X, certainly not while keeping my Red One and having the Epic-M. However my fear is that if I don't go ahead with my purchase I'll loose my place in "the queue" forever, even though I am a Red One owner and and Epic-M owner. I'm not one of the true RED pioneers but I have been a good customer over the years. I have asked to downgrade from Stage 2 to Stage 3, but I have been told no. I'd love to keep my Red One but the fact is, even though it is still a great camera it will fall out of popularity once the Epic-X's are in the wild and it makes little financial sense for me as an owner/operator to keep it. I wish I could run my business on being sentimental (I'd still have my Canon XL-1 if I did!) but especially in this climate I have better things to spend the £20,000 which a kitted out Stage 2 Epic X would cost me when I already have a Red One and a Epic-M.

Then to make matters more interesting are the most recent announcements from Jim about no more discussion of future products until they are ready to ship. Again I totally understand RED's reasons for doing this. However with RED's move to mass produced cameras, which aren't announced until they are ready to ship, does this mean the days of year long waiting lists for cameras and having your place in "the queue" are a thing of the past for RED?

To conclude... I've been told by RED that I cannot downgrade to Stage 3 from Stage 2. Due to my ownership of an Epic-M already, I believe it would be against the best interests of my business to own a Stage 2 Epic-X (therefore having 3 cameras). The thing I'm worrying about is that I will loose my place in "the queue" if I give up my stage 2 Epic-X, even though I've been a loyal Red customer and purchaser of an Epic-M. Or now with large scale production lines and no news until products are ready to ship does "the queue" not matter any more? Should I be punished by loosing my place in the queue even though I bought and Epic-M?

My ideal situation would be to transfer my place in "the queue" to my Epic-M, but I expect that is unlikely.

There is no angry edge to this letter; I'm a big fan of RED, they've shaken up the industry fantastically and produced some amazing cameras. I'm sure they don't want to micromanage every customers business model but I'd love to know what their thoughts are on this.....

Regards,

Ben Spence
 
I think the days of the queue being meaningful are somewhat numbered. As it should be - RED has more than rewarded its early customers, in the order they stepped up to support the company, with continuous upgrades and new camera opportunities.

I'm looking forward to the day when they have grown enough to announce a release and can immediately ship everything to everybody who wants and can afford one, all at once, and all this confusion about queues and who deserves what and when can be a thing of the past.
 
Hi Meryem,

I totally agree and that's what I'm thinking; "the queue" will soon become a thing of the past... I kind of want to hear something along those lines from RED however, without them giving too much away I guess. I just don't want to screw up my future options nor do I want to waste money.

Ben
 
Can't you just sell your X when you get it? People are chomping at the bit to buy the thing and can't..
 
Justin marx said:
Can't you just sell your X when you get it? People are chomping at the bit to buy the thing and can't..
Click to expand...

Well, the issue at hand is keeping one's place in the queue. And I thought queue position was transferred with camera...so if Epic-X was the deciding element for queue position moving forward, and he sold his Epic-X, he would lose his queue position. I could definitely be wrong on this though. And I hate typing queue so many times.
 
Justin marx said:
Can't you just sell your X when you get it? People are chomping at the bit to buy the thing and can't..
Click to expand...

It sounds like he would also need to take another loan for the $14,500 balance due for the Epic-X. Pre-selling is not an option unless you want to be written down as naughty in Santa's book.
 
Hello all,

I've enough cash to buy the Epic-X outright (£38k for Epic-M made a lot more sense with finance) but, especially with all this stuff about being strict about keeping your Red One, I know thats gonna piss off RED. I'd be happy to downgrade to Stage 3 too but again it's not an option. The whole buying a camera to sell it thing isn't something I want to get into to be honest... I've never been good at selling tickets for gigs I can't make; I'd be even worse at doing it with cameras!

Ben
 
Get the EPIC-X Stage 2 and keep your RED ONE or Get the EPIC-X stage 2, then sell your RED ONE, after you receive your EPIC-X Stage 2. OR, ask for your deposit back on Stage 2. OR sell your RED ONE and EPIC-X after you receive your EPIC-X.

I don't really understand your problem .... is it financial?

I don't think there will be any more queues, ever, after stage 3.5 (I think everything will be determined by time of deposit).
 
What about what was orignially said by just selling your M?
 
Hey Jesper,

I've worked hard for what I have; I've not had anything handed to me on a plate in my years of work or beforehand. Like most people here I need to make sure my investments pay for themselves. I don't have the clients to keep 3 cameras busy, nor the time. Hell, I don't even have enough lenses! :)

Maybe I should have thought about that before buying the Epic-M? Perhaps but as I as I said in my original post, an option on an Epic-M was too good to miss, especially with a lot of companies and people new to RED purchasing them. The last thing you can afford to do is to be left behind in the camera game.

My own view has never been that I want to make loads of money on the cameras I have.... I just wanted to break even on the investement and have access to the best camera technology. RED as a company has allowed me to do that and I am very grateful for it. I'd just like to know where I stand in the future before I drop another £20,000 on a camera which is surplus to my requirements which could go towards a set of S5's or something! :)

I do like Reduser!

Ben
 
Can't sell the M since it is on a loan.

I could just buy the Stage 2 Epic-X; but would I be allowed to sell the Red One after that? It sounds like I've got to keep the camera forever according to recent posts in Recon.

If like George says there will never be any more queues ever then I'll just get my deposit back and everything is fine. Ultimately the problem is kind of financial in that I don't want to have 3 cameras when I only need 1 or 2 maximum and a 3rd would be a waste of resources.

Popping out for a bit; I'll see if RED can comment later on about this one. WWJJD?
 
benedictspence said:
Can't sell the M since it is on a loan.

I could just buy the Stage 2 Epic-X; but would I be allowed to sell the Red One after that? It sounds like I've got to keep the camera forever according to recent posts in Recon.

If like George says there will never be any more queues ever then I'll just get my deposit back and everything is fine. Ultimately the problem is kind of financial in that I don't want to have 3 cameras when I only need 1 or 2 maximum and a 3rd would be a waste of resources.

Popping out for a bit; I'll see if RED can comment later on about this one. WWJJD?
Click to expand...

No, they seem cool with you selling it afterwards. Quote from Jarred in the RECON thread:

Jarred Land said:
This is really simple guys.

The Stage program was a program created to take care of our family... you guys are not just customers to us.. we really look at you as our brothers and sisters.

It was ( at least we think ) an incredible gesture to show how much we value that relationship.

To find people trying to go around the system by doing sketchy lease to own and $1 sales to get around the rather simple terms is just plain wrong. It not only breaks our obligation to provide whatever stage you signed up for.. but it also breaks our hearts. It's really that personal.

We have watched this go on for awhile.. Jim has posted that it upset him.. but people continue to do it.

For all of you guys here that have posted that you have kept your camera and have stated various states of affection for your R1... We will never forget. We love you guys. For those of you like Andrew that have kept your camera and plan to sell it afterwards for various reasons... you are good in our books. But those of you that have sold off your camera and somehow think that a loophole makes everything o.k... Re-read Jim's signature.
Click to expand...

So, there ya go :-)
 
Hello Ben,

Okay, so you were not born with a silver spoon up your buttom... I stand corrected.
I just got a little annoyed by your 'problem'. Having the luxurary of owning three Red-cameras is not something a lot of people have in a world that is tearing apart.
I hope you realize how 'lucky' a position you are in, no matter how hard you worked for it. Appreciate it :)

Jesper
 
1. You can sell your RED ONE *after* your X is delivered. You don't have to keep it forever, just until X is delivered.

2. If you really don't need the X, you can sell that too. Or instead.

3. I'm slightly taken aback by RED's attitude to allowing a switch from Stage 2 to Stage 3 when the customer wanting a dispensation to switch is someone who has just *dropped $60k on an EPIC-M* - that makes them hardcore RED and IMHO should cut them just a little slack here...?

Everything changes, as RED say, and that includes the position of customers who have been waiting for Stage 2 a *lot* longer than they, or RED, ever envisaged.

Mike
 
Buy the Epic X and then sell the Red One. Use the money from the sale of your Red One to buy some accessories and/or lenses. Then you would have 2 Epics and not lose your place in the line (which will most likely not matter anyway). Those 2 Epics will rent for the next 3 years minimum and if you get a Dragon upgrade probably another 3. How does that sound? Good luck with your decision :)
 
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