STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

[Gunleik Groven]

I LOVE RED! I will NEVER sell my RED ONE MX (I NEVER sold my Arri 16BL either, nor a lot of other cams that I will not start naming), I promote RED at every occation I can find, I eat/sleep and drink RED.
I was LUCKY to be able to afford my R1 MX #476 to begin with (I was ready to put down the deposit at NAB was it April 2006? - but I just couldn´t, cause I had had a very hard time and I needed the 1000$ for food and rent...)

My RED ONE 476MX (and now SSD´s) came at a Perfect time in my life, on February 1st 2008 - I will never forget that day, we had a blizzard here in Oslo and I had to pay the duty/taxes thorugh my bank connection (huge stress) and then travel in very rough snowy conditions to the airport and pick it up. But what an AMAZING time it has been, what a PLEASURE it has been, what AMAZING LOVE I feel from and to RED and all the good rock star heroes at RED that I deal with.

And what an amazing journey it has been for me as a self emplyed; Dop/director/producer/editor and now one.man camera rental company.

I got my Epic-M, will NOt sell my R1 #476, I will get my Epic-X and still not sell any of the other cameras, I just LOVE all the RED has done.

And every day when I go to work, I am an ambassador for RED and do my upmost to make their products look the best. I am overfilled with joy of being in the position that I am with regards to RED; I recently had to get a new sensor for my Epic-M -8500$ dollars, not covered by the warranty - reason: apparently damage by laser. What do I do, do I cry, no I pay up, because I know in the long run I will make it back.
THE SMARTEST THING I EVER DID IN MY WORK WAS BUYING RED, AND CONTINUE BUYING RED!


And the funny thing is, I know personally at least one person caught in the stage 2 trap... and I know for a fact that this person is just as dedicated and loving toward REDs line of products / it´s services and it´s people. And I also know for a fact that today this person had his/hers worst nightmare realised through this thread. This has been going on for two years, without any clear warnings, apparently both Steve Gibby and Ketch Rossi are involved, I think the whole thing is just very very sad, I feel for those who thouyght they were on the right side of the line.

RED
I love what you have made, and I stand by you in sunshine and in hard storms! I just humbly ask that you reconcider this.

Best regards
Eirik Tyrihjel
owner/operator RED ONE MX#476 (SSD), RED EPIC-M 646, RED ONE #6386, and soon (hopefully) stage 2 Epic-X

OK

Back

To be clear:
I subscribe to all this!



That is what I am meaning by finding diplomatic solutions to a mess that has exploded in 100's of R1 users face.

I just don't think legaleeze is a good advice...

And I am surprised that none of the brokers have stood up and given peace to their customers minds...

(Ducking again)

 

[Stephen Williams]

Why should RED have to police a situation where they have a clear contract. If the buyers want to break the contract they have with RED OK they are allowed to. Sanjin lost his right to upgrade, it was a clear warning to everybody else.

No, I bought mine before the Oct 31 Deadline and before STAGE 2 even existed.

I will say this one last time... someone at RED knew full well Stage 2 people were selling there executed R1's on lease to purchase agreements AND were even included in making sure the drafting of the rental agreements were IN COMPLIANCE with STAGE 2 RULES.

Now it appears Jim and Jarred were NOT made aware of this.

See the issue here now?

 

[George Butterfield]

No, I bought mine before the Oct 31 Deadline and before STAGE 2 even existed.

I will say this one last time... someone at RED knew full well Stage 2 people were selling there executed R1's on lease to purchase agreements AND were even included in making sure the drafting of the rental agreements were IN COMPLIANCE with STAGE 2 RULES.

Now it appears Jim and Jarred were NOT made aware of this.

See the issue here now?

You would have to prove that RED said these people would still be eligible for the "Stage 2 upgrade". Do you have an example of such a statement from RED?

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Why should RED have to police a situation where they have a clear contract. If the buyers want to break the contract they have with RED OK they are allowed to. Sanjin lost his right to upgrade, it was a clear warning to everybody else.

Because employees at RED were included in the transaction. That's why.

Sure you don't write for the SUN? Quoting out of context. twisting facts and even bringing the IRS into this thread... wow, you sure know how to foster community there Stephen.

 

[Irmeli R]

Ketch?

 

[Tim Morten]

@Bob's story is pretty emblematic of how challenging this issue is to sort out fairly. I'm certain there are a lot of folks who have needed cash who did deals (lease or sale) between the Stage 2 announce and the long journey to Epic-X actually shipping, while Red hung onto their $5k. Should they forfeit their discount and their place in line? How could they even all be identified, and should they be? I commend @Bob for his bravery in posting.

Many folks who physically held on to their cameras are surely going to say "Hang 'em!", but it's really not clear to me that @Bob intended to be "sketchy" or to take advantage of Red. Penalizing folks like this has the potential to undermine the goodwill that has built up in this community. I sincerely hope there is another solution. I have faith that Red will put deep thought into this before proceeding.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Do the Sun employ dyslexic writers, I must give them a call.
Looking from the outside it's clearly an attempt to get round the rules, some people will have falsified their accounts as well, people taking advantage it happens every day.
Best Stephen

Because employees at RED were included in the transaction. That's why.

Sure you don't write for the SUN? Quoting out of context. twisting facts and even bringing the IRS into this thread... wow, you sure know how to foster community there Stephen.

 

[George Butterfield]

Because employees at RED were included in the transaction. That's why.

You're skirting around the only salient point Tim. There's nothing wrong with selling or leasing a camera. RED will help you sell or lease a camera, I surmise. But, did RED say you could sell your camera and still be eligible for stage 2? Jim stated that certain lease agreements were not "kosher".

 

[Karl H]

Some people would have knowingly broke the contract to get ahead in line and make a profit early . Others, as mentioned above would have been forced into selling due to the long wait or genuinely made a mistake. The question is where do red draw the line? Prob best to wait for a real response before everyone kills each other here. If as Tim said red reps gave assurances then that's another thing too.

 

[Frank Cueto]

I would expect Jim & Co, being the kind of people they are, to be considering some kind of incentive/prize/benefit that was unanounced and only available for the pople who followed the spirit of the agreement. This would be an incentive, and certainly couldn't be considered as penalization on anyone.

 

[C. Miersch]

Im a lurker here, I seldom comment anything, but this catches my attention.

To the people wich pointed out all the sale threads / people over the last years and wondered why Red did not do anything.

One point to consider is, Red was in no position to enforce the Stage 2 rules earlier (when they could not deliver). Had they done that, it would have become a shitstorm of epic (no pun intended) proportions.

They can only do that now.

If thats wise thats another question. Christopher Barret said it very good for my taste.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Do the Sun employ dyslexic writers, I must give them a call.
Looking from the outside it's clearly an attempt to get round the rules, some people will have falsified their accounts as well, people taking advantage it happens every day.
Best Stephen

What part of "but RED helped fuel this situation by authorizing the Stage 2 R1 sales" don't you get from the outside? People approached RED before the lease agreements were made and did so to ENSURE STAGE 2 benefits were kept intact.

I am now waiting for RED to explain how, in this context, that the deal was "shady" when the lessor was under the impression the deal was legit, so long as RED wasn't burdened with the transfer until after EPIC-X shipped.

 

[George Butterfield]

I would expect Jim & Co, being the kind of people they are, to be considering some kind of incentive/prize/benefit that was unanounced and only available for the pople who followed the spirit of the agreement. This would be an incentive, and certainly couldn't be considered as penalization on anyone.

RED already gives us the best price/performance package for filmmaking. What is this talk of incentive/prize/benefit? I have to cut corners to raise the money for Stage 3 but I don't want anymore "gifts" from RED. I assume that once these stages are finished RED will breath a sigh of relief realizing that they can now just devote their energies to sales and R&D. All these Stages must be a costly drain of time and money .... what a headache!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

You would have to prove that RED said these people would still be eligible for the "Stage 2 upgrade". Do you have an example of such a statement from RED?

not going there in this forum. But unequivocally, YES, people do, but seriously doubt they want to cost anyone their job.

Hence my begging RED to just DELETE THIS THREAD!

 

[Stephen Williams]

What part of "but RED helped fuel this situation by authorizing the Stage 2 R1 sales" don't you get from the outside? People approached RED before the lease agreements were made and did so to ENSURE STAGE 2 benefits were kept intact.

I am now waiting for RED to explain how, in this context, that the deal was "shady" when the lessor was under the impression the deal was legit, so long as RED wasn't burdened with the transfer until after EPIC-X shipped.

OK Tim, if you have this in writing on RED notepaper & signed then you may have a point on the camera in question & the rental agreement that was agreed at that time. If not.... I rest my case. Best Stephen

Edit or are you saying the broker said it would be all right?

 

[Andrew clemson]

Whats this thread about again?

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

I'm also mostly a lurker and this is my first post, however I've been following the site for some time. I always understood the concept of "keep your Red One" to mean, do whatever you want with it (as it was purchased in the first place and not given to on loan). I don't see a reason why RED would care about someone keeping their camera in hand or simply selling it prior. It seems like these people had to put deposits down months, if not years in advance with no delivery date confirmed at all. If somewhere it was outlined extremely specifically (other than what I see in the one page clause), I see no reason why it would matter if someone kept their camera or sold their camera. In fact, selling their camera in advance could be the only reason they may now afford the newer epic and may have needed the money to fund it's delviery.

Just a thought, and I may be missing something here, but seems a bit unfair to me to make someone in possibly hard financial circumstances keep their equipment and show a picture of it now.

It is pretty amazing that some had a great opportunity to put a deposit down on a camera at a lower cost and I wish I was around here then, but with the late delivery on several products, extreme hype on upcoming products that still have no delivery date (I have been holding off on a Sony F3 for the Epic S, Scarlet is not for me, but may consider it if and when it ever shows up) it seems like the least RED can do is honor these guys the cameras. HOWEVER, if there was fowl play and outlined and explained and could not have been overlooked, I would admit then those shouldn't have the deal. Just my two cents.

PLEASE BTW, come out with the damn Epic S already !!!

 

[Curran Giddens]

I would expect Jim & Co, being the kind of people they are, to be considering some kind of incentive/prize/benefit that was unanounced and only available for the pople who followed the spirit of the agreement. This would be an incentive, and certainly couldn't be considered as penalization on anyone.

Or just penalize people by doing this... Create this thread. Let the people who now realize they may have skirted the rules to sweat it out for a bit, to think about how they may have taken advantage.

You will either get an "Epic-X Stage 2 still approved" email, or you will be asked how you would prefer your deposit back. Haha.

 

[Michael Olsen]

This is nitty gritty, and I'm sad that it's happening. But it seems that as time passed, people kind of forgot about Stage 2.

I think it is one thing for RED to authorize a sale. That's simple "Yes, you can sell your camera."

I think it is quite another for RED to authorize a sale and validate Stage 2 compliance. "Yes, you can sell your camera and you will remain Stage 2."

How many people just asked for approval or authorization without mentioning Stage 2 compliance? And how many then took that approval as a tacit approval that their Stage 2 status remained intact? Is it RED's responsibility, every time someone wants to sell a camera or transfer ownership, to remind them "If you are Stage 2, you will lose your status if you proceed."? What about the "List of RED ONE Cameras for Sale" thread? There is no mention there, no reminder from RED or from friendly users, that doing so could be a real problem. Ugh...why couldn't the community have protected itself from this? I've been following most of these forums pretty carefully for a while now, but I've never gotten more than a whiff of this before right now.

And then there is the business of what constitutes a "transfer of ownership" - is making a lease agreement years in advance, in a sense, transferring ownership...just post-dating it? Is there the intent that the lessor would, in the end, keep the camera and that it really was just a long-term rental? I don't know...

I feel bad for just about everyone involved here. RED, undoubtedly, is extremely passionate about what they do and I don't think the degree of that passion is always expressed. I have every understanding that individual people at RED are personally upset about all of this. I feel bad for them, because - obviously - there is some tension on personal and professional relationships which have occurred over the course of years. I feel bad for the people who, like Mark Toia, just totally forgot about Stage 2. And I feel bad for the people who were of the understanding that they could lease or rent their camera - not sell it, or transfer its ownership to anyone else - and remain perfectly within the "letter of the law" realm of their contract. I suppose the only people I don't feel bad for are those who knowingly and intentionally violated their contract, but made efforts to falsify or cover up that they had done so - but I have no idea who those people really are.

That is why I read this thread and I feel that it is so unfortunate. I suppose, in the end, I just hope that the truth will come out, in every individual case, and that there will be no bad blood spilled undeservedly.

Now I'm going to go back into the Cave of Optimism for a while.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

No one is actually selling their R1's right now are they?

I thought they were just "leasing" them out until they officially receive their Epics then they will sale them officially with name trades and everything.

Maybe I misunderstood what they were doing.