Insight into Apple Strategy for FCP-X, iPad and more?

[Eric Santiago]

I find it weird that no matter what the topic is, Apple gets dragged in the mud.
I just read a post in the Avid section about why you cant import Epic footage into MC.
I see one reply thats its coming maybe after IBC.
If this was an Apple product that thread would have been 60 pages with 90% fud/bashing

 

[Chris Kenny]

What would be the gain in this? If you're creating .h264 proxies you may as well transfer the ProRes files to your laptop, edit with them and avoid the transcode.

As I noted previously, this was the general argument against the iPad; it doesn't do anything laptops don't do. I see no reason to believe this argument will be more accurate when applied to this particular use case than it was in general.

I fail to see how spending time transcoding/transferring to an iPad will improve the editorial process when you can avoid it all and make more precise edits with more control and a lot more speed on a laptop, using the raw files or ProRes files.

For edits that consist of ingesting footage, spending an 8 hour day cutting, and then outputting, an iPad workflow (of the sort that will be technically feasible in the immediate future) probably doesn't make much sense.

But for something like a feature, where the editorial process can take a significant amount of time? The iPad's portability and couch-friendly form factor would allow the editor to really sort of live with the material in a way that just couldn't quite be duplicated by a laptop, I think.

Again, I have no particularly good feel for whether these rumors are true... but I do find the idea compelling.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Let's not forget the recently announced Epic module that will essentially stream proxies from camera, or possibly streaming ProRes from Alexa. No transcode required.

 

[Michael Hancock]

But for something like a feature, where the editorial process can take a significant amount of time? The iPad's portability and couch-friendly form factor would allow the editor to really sort of live with the material in a way that just couldn't quite be duplicated by a laptop, I think.

Why specifically couldn't it be duplicated on a laptop? I have a tablet - I love it. It's great for surfing the web, typing emails, playing with different apps. We have iPads at work for client presentations. They're great for that. But the touch screen is too imprecise for editing. It's too laggy. Part of great editing software is getting out of the way and doing exactly what I tell it to instantaneously, or as close to instant as possible. Especially when you're playing with material, trying new edits, rearranging things. When inspiration hits I don't want to wait for a tablet to keep up with me - I want a system that can very quickly move stuff around, cut/paste, etc...

In addition, if your iPad is running a program like FCPX, when do you do you metadata tagging? On a desktop system before you transfer to the iPad? On the iPad itself? On a laptop before you transfer it to an iPad? I'm just having trouble seeing what an iPad or any other tablet would offer, beside a little more portability, than a fast, small, lightweight laptop. It seems much, much more limited in total functionality, even for rough editing or playing around with an edit.

 

[Michael Hancock]

Let's not forget the recently announced Epic module that will essentially stream proxies from camera, or possibly streaming ProRes from Alexa. No transcode required.

Streaming directly from a camera would be awesome, particularly if it's ProRes or DNxHD (has Red committed to ProRes or DNxHD modules? I thought it was h264). Straight from camera to edit is ideal, especially if you're wanting to view and test cuts on a set. If Red could stream or dual record to a true editing codec it would be a huge timesaver. Edit with those, link back to r3d, grade and output.

We shot a short test with an Alexa a couple weeks ago - brought a Macbook Pro, GRaid drive, and had half the edit finished before we left for the day. It was great to check continuity between edits, check for issues we'd have in compositing - saved a lot of time/work. Streaming .h264 could be helpful, but not nearly as helpful as ProRes or DNxHD. But trying to do that edit on a touchscreen or some sort of tablet? It simply wouldn't have been as fast, and since time is money - I'll take a slightly larger laptop with speed over a smaller but less efficient tablet any day.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Why specifically couldn't it be duplicated on a laptop? I have a tablet - I love it. It's great for surfing the web, typing emails, playing with different apps. We have iPads at work for client presentations. They're great for that. But the touch screen is too imprecise for editing. It's too laggy. Part of great editing software is getting out of the way and doing exactly what I tell it to instantaneously, or as close to instant as possible. Especially when you're playing with material, trying new edits, rearranging things. When inspiration hits I don't want to wait for a tablet to keep up with me - I want a system that can very quickly move stuff around, cut/paste, etc...

In addition, if your iPad is running a program like FCPX, when do you do you metadata tagging? On a desktop system before you transfer to the iPad? On the iPad itself? On a laptop before you transfer it to an iPad? I'm just having trouble seeing what an iPad or any other tablet would offer, beside a little more portability, than a fast, small, lightweight laptop. It seems much, much more limited in total functionality, even for rough editing or playing around with an edit.

The lag observation is an interesting one that is certain to improve in time. Not withstanding that you poo poo portability at your own peril I think. The difference between carrying a laptop and a 7-12 inch touchpad is not trivial. I refer again to the Clapper/Loader as an example. Not having to open it up and use a dedicated keypad while still adding key input data to the work stream wirelessly is preferable for some jobs. So rather than a one tool for all jobs think of it as one tool that can be specialized for the use of many. Does that not appear welcoming to you?

Streaming directly from a camera would be awesome, particularly if it's ProRes or DNxHD (has Red committed to ProRes or DNxHD modules? I thought it was h264). Straight from camera to edit is ideal, especially if you're wanting to view and test cuts on a set. If Red could stream or dual record to a true editing codec it would be a huge timesaver. Edit with those, link back to r3d, grade and output.

I believe you are correct. It is H2.64 and certainly ProRes would be nicer to rough cut with than a proxy.

We shot a short test with an Alexa a couple weeks ago - brought a Macbook Pro, GRaid drive, and had half the edit finished before we left for the day. It was great to check continuity between edits, check for issues we'd have in compositing - saved a lot of time/work. Streaming .h264 could be helpful, but not nearly as helpful as ProRes or DNxHD. But trying to do that edit on a touchscreen or some sort of tablet? It simply wouldn't have been as fast, and since time is money - I'll take a slightly larger laptop with speed over a smaller but less efficient tablet any day.

Point taken. I may be looking a little further down the road than you are. Perhaps one day... But again, as parts of a streamlined ecosystem that ultimately feeds into editorial I see potential for huge time savings by integrating tablets better in some, not all positions. How's that for a refined position, OK?

On second thought, if properly implemented the Clapper shouldn't have to type much if anything. Camera data could come straight from camera, while scene data comes right from Script. The clapper just manipulates take info and pushes that back to Camera and Script simultaneously. Am I missing anything important?

 

[Michael Hancock]

As a clapper? Absolutely. Load a script on it and mark good takes/notes, etc...then send the metadata directly to a central ingest/processing center and marry it to the corresponding clip? That would rock and could save tons of time in post. I think there are amazing possibilities here, and I agree with the majority of your vision.

But editing on a tablet? No. I don't see the gains there. Maybe one day, but right now and in the immediate future I simply don't see how this will improve anything. Portability is important, but not at the sacrifice of usability.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As a clapper? Absolutely. Load a script on it and mark good takes/notes, etc...then send the metadata directly to a central ingest/processing center and marry it to the corresponding clip? That would rock and could save tons of time in post. I think there are amazing possibilities here, and I agree with the majority of your vision.

But editing on a tablet? No. I don't see the gains there. Maybe one day, but right now and in the immediate future I simply don't see how this will improve anything. Portability is important, but not at the sacrifice of usability.

Yes... That may be where we shift from the iPad portion of the discussion and back to FCPX. With it's expanded use of metadata (And I am only speculating here) I should think it is primed to fit into this kind of ecosystem in a way that other editorial tools presently are not.

One could even imagine a scenario where FCPX were an assistant editor's tool if it were never to complete it's evolution into a full editor in a worst case scenario. (So far as Apple is concerned.) Use it on a tablet or laptop, as an interim step for compiling log and tag data, culling selects, maybe some rough assembly, and perhaps generating dailies and passing those on to another system for primary editing. But I have stated before that I fully expect FCPX to mature into a killer next step in editing.

Again, in that grey area between the DIT and Assistant Editor, a good sized, quality monitor is preferable to a small tablet.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Terry, as you mentioned - Michael Cioni is one of the smartest guys in the entire Red movement and probably up there as one of the more cutting edge minds in the post production industry right now. Mark L. Pederson is up there as well. Would they be using iPads on set right now if they were just "cool" but useless??? Let's give them a little credit.

No one is saying it's the be all, end all tool. But it IS a becoming a legitimate professional tool for those who are open to it.

I get the feeling that if another (perhaps smaller) yet "pro" company in the industry came out with something like the iPad -- exclusively for viewing on set, dallies, quick rough cuts and other things you mentioned -- and they charged $3,000-5,000 each for one -- everybody here would be freaking out over how awesome it is.

Yet because it's inexpensive "consumer tech" made by the non-pro and villainous Apple -- it's a cool but useless gimmick and anyone who says otherwise is just a fanboy! Go figure

 

[Tim Morten]

Terry, as you mentioned - Michael Cioni is one of the smartest guys in the entire Red movement and probably up there as one of the more cutting edge minds in the post production industry right now. Mark L. Pederson is up there as well. Would they be using iPads on set right now if they were just "cool" but useless??? Let's give them a little credit.

No one is saying that iPads don't have something to contribute (such as a viewing surface for dailies). We are saying that more complex operations (ie - editing, coloring, etc.) are best done on a platform with more capabilities and more input options.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Here is at least one reference to Light Iron's system, to put this in perspective.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?53254-Light-Iron-s-iPad-Dailies-System-joins-Red-0031-on-Set

Why are some insisting that is's all or nothing on the set (everything iPad or nothing - beyond slating). And, to be sure, if you'd rather insist you want to SIT DOWN with your LAPTOP, that's fine, too. How hard is it to imagine someone do the administrative work of categorizing the shots and building the metadata database on set, as the footage is being shot. Again, Light Iron is already sending proxy footage out to be viewed instantaneously. Whatever notes are made on set, with the proxies, can be re-synched to the "real" footage later. From proxies, you can certainly see when a boom was in the shot or an actor flubbed a line or which performances were delivered well. This, I believe, is where FCP-X is currently ahead of the pack in supporting this kind of workflow efficiency. That's my point.

I am not advocating color grading on an iPad. That's ridiculous and not what I am saying should happen. The iPad - again, I believe to be easier and more convenient with which to to wander around a set than a laptop, is a great tool for assigning metadata which can support the edit later. That's all.

Some folks will not want to work that way. Others, who needed the edit finished yesterday, perhaps those on a tight television schedule, will want every efficiency they can muster. :coolgleamA:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I am not advocating color grading on an iPad. That's ridiculous and not what I am saying should happen. The iPad - again, I believe to be easier and more convenient with which to to wander around a set than a laptop, is a great tool for assigning metadata which can support the edit later. That's all.

:coolgleamA:

What does this have to do with Ipad or FCPX?
This could be just as easily achieved with android or windows tablet and Mpeg4 files. And for the fraction of the price of IPad and FCPX...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What does this have to do with Ipad or FCPX?
This could be just as easily achieved with android or windows tablet and Mpeg4 files. And for the fraction of the price of IPad and FCPX...

I am suggesting that the metadata management capabilities of FCP-X (being built on a database, and based on what I have seen in the app so far) are perfect for this purpose. Personally, I don't see Android or Windows supporting FCP-X any time soon - but maybe I am wrong in this conjecture - while iPad very probably will. And, the metadata as well as rough timelines and Auditions (allowing easy comparisons of different takes) can then be ported directly to the "desktop" where "serious" editing can begin. Of course, any set of companies offering the various pieces of this process, and the desire to cooperate and copy such a system, could potentially offer an alternative - they'd need a tablet, as well as an application with the specific automated and powerful metadata capabilities which can run on that table. Right ow, Apple, being the hardware and software supplier is the only such "system" that looks to be headed down that road. Anyone who has not taken the time to look closely at what FCP-X is capable of, in terms of metadata collection and management, would probably not recognize why this couldn't simply be replaced by taking detailed notes on an Android table.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Why are you not advocating color grading on an iPad? Can't you colorsync the calibrated iPad to a REC709 monitor?

 

[AnthonyFlores]

What does this have to do with Ipad or FCPX?
This could be just as easily achieved with android or windows tablet and Mpeg4 files. And for the fraction of the price of IPad and FCPX...

There's been a pretty big graveyard of those thus far and none seemed radically cheaper than the iPad at same size/specs. Which one do you suggest?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Why are you not advocating color grading on an iPad? Can't you colorsync the calibrated iPad to a REC709 monitor?

Ultimately the control surface and screen real estate might prove to be unrealistic constraints. But who knows...

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I think it's rather elitist of you to discard the potential use of this new user base. The control surface will be the iPad itself.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

There's been a pretty big graveyard of those thus far and none seemed radically cheaper than the iPad at same size/specs. Which one do you suggest?

Let me know where that grave yard is - I'd gladly dig up some graves..:wink5:
I just don't see anything that special about the Ipad HW or SW performance wise. If a 2 year old laptop works I'm pretty sure I find some tablets-they look very promising...
As far as meta data acquisition goes it seems a major overkill to use editing SW for that IMO....

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Actually I think there were threads before about people using the iPad as a control surface for grading, as well as other applications like Photoshop. Some loved the idea, others hated it .... would be interesting I think.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Let me know where that grave yard is - I'd gladly dig up some graves..:wink5:
I just don't see anything that special about the Ipad HW or SW performance wise. If a 2 year old laptop works I'm pretty sure I find some tablets-they look very promising...
As far as meta data acquisition goes it seems a major overkill to use editing SW for that IMO....

Jacek - at this point we ARE beating a dead horse. :beatdeadhorse5:

Let me ask, and I am not being glib, I am just curious - have you spent any substantial amount of time with FCP-X to get acquainted with the automated and flexible metadata capabilities of the software? If not, I understand your confusion and skepticism about what I am saying. If you have, then perhaps we conjure up different visions and simply disagree about the potential. :coolgleamA:

And why would a $300 app (or a "lite" version for less?) be "major overkill" for creating substantial efficiencies on a (dare I say it?) a "professional" set? :lol: